Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

[Eric Page]

Hi, everyone. I've been lurking here for awhile, but the time has finally arrived for my first post. I've been preparing to order a Kitfox from the factory, but while speaking to a neighbor last night about it, he told me about a "barn find" project that needs a new home. Here's what I know:

• It's a Series 5 taildragger, so either a Safari or Outback, and probably with 1,550# MGW (not sure of its exact age, but roughly 20 years)
• It might be a Speedster (the owner said he bought some Speedster options, but it may just be the airfoiled vertical stab)
• Dual adjustable rudder pedals and toe brakes
• Full Whelen light package (incandescent nav/beacon/landing and flash tube strobes, all still in the box)
• Standard 6-pack of round dial instruments (unknown if they're installed in the panel)
• No radios whatsoever
• No parts for cabin vent or heat
• No cargo bay liner or interior upholstery
• Plumbing and wiring status unknown
• Rotax 912 engine mount and cowling (shape unknown), but no engine or propeller
• Wings were factory-built, and I presume they've been rigged to the fuselage, because...
• Wings are covered and Poly-Brushed, ready for Poly-Spray
• Unknown if fuselage is covered
• Unknown if owner still has the full hardware kit, assembly manuals, build log, etc.
• The project has been stored in a semi trailer for at least five years (owner is a retired trucker)
• My neighbor (who has built many planes, mostly composite) says the owner's work was meticulous

I would sell the lighting package and upgrade to LEDs.
I'm OK that there's no engine, as I wouldn't want something that had been sitting for 20+ years.
Same with radios, as they would be obsolete by now, and I would replace the instruments with an EFIS.

So, here are my questions:

1. What are the main differences between the Series 5 and Series 7? Anything really compelling?
2. Do the current factory-supplied wing strut fairings fit the Series 5?
3. A cursory internet search suggests that retrofitting cabane gear isn't complex or difficult. Is that accurate?
4. Does the factory still support Series 5 builders with parts, upholstery, tech support, etc? Is there an ownership transfer fee to get support?
5. Are there any concerns about Poly-Fiber fabric deterioration during storage since it wasn't completely finished (assuming no moisture)?
6. Will I have to replace the Poly-Fiber chemicals due to shelf life expiration, or are they fine if still sealed?
7. Assuming it has a Speedster wing, does the factory (or anyone else) still make wingtip extensions?

I'm going to look at it tomorrow afternoon (it's an hour away), so I'll have answers to some of the unknowns when I get back. In the meantime, any suggestions for specific things I should look for/at would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[Kitfox Guy]

There are a number of people who have built or restored KF’s on this site who live in WA, perhaps one of them can accompany you to inspect the potential project this weekend. On the other hand it is Father’s Day weekend and they might have other plans this weekend.

[jmodguy]

I just completed a Series 5 and can tell you that the 5, 6, and 7 share many similarities. Trent Palmers Bird is a Series 5 also. The cabane gear and Grove gear will bolt up and the fairing covers will work. Cowls and firewall fwd will also work. Seat pan will fit and you can still get a baggage sack for a 5.
The one item you need to check is the wall thickness of the wing spars. If they are .050, the gw is 1400 lbs. If they are .063 the gw is 1550.
If you do buy this, you may want to consider buying the S7 elevator. It has a deeper chord (@3”). The other item is the reinforcing plate at the tailwheel if the fuse is not covered yet.

[alexM]

I just completed a Series 5 and can tell you that the 5, 6, and 7 share many similarities. Trent Palmers Bird is a Series 5 also. The cabane gear and Grove gear will bolt up and the fairing covers will work. Cowls and firewall fwd will also work. Seat pan will fit and you can still get a baggage sack for a 5.
The one item you need to check is the wall thickness of the wing spars. If they are .050, the gw is 1400 lbs. If they are .063 the gw is 1550.
If you do buy this, you may want to consider buying the S7 elevator. It has a deeper chord (@3”). The other item is the reinforcing plate at the tailwheel if the fuse is not covered yet.

Can you expand on this reinforcing plate for the tailwheel? If I'm going to have any welding done (and it looks like I will), I want to do it once and move on.

[Jerrytex]

https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/thread...3606#post83606

[alexM]

https://teamkitfox.com/Forums/thread...3606#post83606

Thank you. That does not look like major surgery

[Greg g]

This is a great read, I thought I would through in my 2 cents, and that’s all it’s worth. I would look at your entire budget for the build. If you are intending to build a plane that’s bare bone, as inexpensive as you can, this may be the way to go. If on the other hand you plan on outfitting it with a new Rotax, a fancy panel, $4k bush wheels you are investing allot of money in a 20-25 year old fountain. As for value, prices in the stol category are through the roof, it’s a sellers market.
best of luck to you, keep us posted.

[SilverFox5]

Hi Eric, sorry not to answer back but got sent out of town with last-minute notice. But i see you received some good info. We removed our rudder pedals and drilled out the rivets and are welding in some 4130 gusset's.
Our fuel tanks had not been installed yet and we will be running pump auto gas most of the time. That is why we bought new tanks. We have access to ethanol free auto gas here in wisconsin now but cannot guarantee if that will always be available.
We also cut our elevator apart and added 3 inches to enlarge it instead of buying a new one.

Joe

[DesertFox4]

All the PolyFiber chemicals are way beyond use. No value.
Also I wouldn't cover my new aircraft with 20 year old fabric.

[Eric Page]

Thanks to all who replied. Much appreciated!

It turns out the plane already has cabane gear; apparently it was an option at the time. The fuselage is powder coated flat black, which is how I would have ordered it. I didn't measure the spar tubes, but the owner confirmed that it's an older kit with a 1,400# gross weight. He has the PVC wing strut fairings. Those and the airfoiled tail were the Speedster parts he bought; it's otherwise stock, with the standard length wing. There are no Poly-Fiber chemicals left (he purchased as needed), so shelf life isn't a concern.

The bottom and sides of the fuselage are covered, but he left the top open for access to install cables, wiring, etc.

Since the wings were factory built, I probably wouldn't strip them just to inspect, but the fabric work is spotty in places. There are wrinkles and bubbles in the tapes, and some unglued edges on the fuselage and wings (maybe these just get trimmed off?).

He applied the Poly-Brush with a pretty heavy hand; there are runs pretty much everywhere, many of them on the inside. It looks like it was painted on everywhere, not just over the tapes (perhaps this is right; I have no experience covering airplanes).

The cabane fabric and underside of the fuselage were painted with silver UV blocker, but nowhere else (he said someone gave him some leftover from their project and he "wanted to use it up"). Given that he hadn't applied Poly-Spray anywhere else, I have to assume there's none under the UV blocker. It was clearly applied with a brush, as there are brush marks visible. It's going to need some sanding and a re-spray to look good for paint.

There's a bit of trailer rash in a few places. The fabric has a few small tears along the leading edge tube at the base of the vertical stab, and there's a patch of fabric that appears to be missing on a leading edge corner of one of the elevators. It was up on a shelf, so difficult to see its exact condition; I couldn't get closer than about five feet from it.

Door windows are installed, and the protective film has been removed. They're quite dirty, and I wouldn't be surprised to find scratches when they're cleaned, so I can probably count on replacing them. The windshield is not installed and the film is mostly intact except around the edges. I didn't see the turtledeck, but he says it's there. The cowling halves are both present (radial-bump style) and no fitting has been done. Wingtips are present, also not fit or trimmed.

The firewall is in place, as are the sticks, pedals, control linkages, seat pan, seat belts, brakes, brake lines and landing gear. The tail is built with the trim motor installed and wire routed to the switch. There are wires in the wings for lights. Apart from those items, and the covering, pretty much everything else is left to be done. The owner said all remaining hardware is present and organized, and he's including all airplane-specific tools, drill bits, reamers, etc.

It was pretty difficult to take usable photos since the plane was stored in an unlit semi trailer. A lot of the owners personal items were stacked between the doors and the plane, so light was poor for an iPhone camera. I could inspect with a flashlight, but I only got a few photos to show the general workmanship.

So with regard to condition, it's not as pretty as I would prefer, but worst case I just strip it, clean the bones and re-cover. I wouldn't be the first 2nd owner to do that, but it would negate a bit of the time and cost savings.

Here's where it gets interesting... He lost the original Series 5 assembly manual from SkyStar in a move, but got a replacement from John at Kitfox. The only one John could provide was a Series 7 manual, but he said there are only minor differences. That doesn't worry me too much; I can always ask questions here or call Kitfox for help. Here's the rub: he took notes in the original assembly manual as he went along, intending to present that to the airworthiness inspector as his builder's log. With the manual lost, he has no log for his progress so far.

Finally, he claims to have about $25k invested and he wants $20k for the project. Given that my notional order sheet, with options, totals >$48k, this is a good opportunity to enforce some much-needed fiscal discipline on myself, and preserve capital for the panel and firewall forward.

Here are my remaining questions:

1. Does the factory still support Series 5 builders with parts, upholstery, tech support, etc? Is there an ownership transfer fee to get support?
2. Are there any concerns about Poly-Fiber fabric deterioration during storage since it wasn't completely finished (it's been stored dry and in the dark)?
3. Apart from the weight, is excessive Poly-Brush application a concern? Can runs be carefully sanded smooth and then Poly-Sprayed?
4. Is the suspected absence of Poly-Spray under the UV blocker on the cabanes and fuselage bottom a concern? Would this argue for stripping and recovering the fuselage?
5. Assuming that everything from the original kit is there, and given the condition as I've described it, does $20k sound anything like reasonable?
6. Finally, How do I handle the missing builder's log? Can I document his progress at the time of sale with thorough photographs, have him sign an affidavit stating that he completed the work up to that point, then continue the build with a log of my own? Or, will I have to disassemble the plane and start over?

Thanks!