Kitfox Aircraft Stick and Rudder Stein Air Grove Aircraft TCW Technologies Dynon Avionics AeroLED MGL Avionics Leading Edge Airfoils Desser EarthX Batteries Garmin G3X Touch
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    308

    Default Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    I've been keeping watch and reading over several build threads where Oratex is involved. I'm just starting mine now and have several unanswered questions. I didn't want to hijack those build threads so starting this one.

    When applying to the fuselage, what order did you use and would you have changed that? Currently I'm planning bottom, top then sides. My reasoning is to then only apply the 2" tapes such that they are only visible on the top and bottom - not the sides. Additionally it would seem that the transition at the tail would be better hidden if it's wrapped around the tubing rather than trying to make a nice seam on top of a side piece.

    The the other big question is if you applied strips of oratex to all the ribs of the wings and tail and then applied your panel on top of that. I've been told contradicting information. What did you do and why was that your decision? It would seem difficult to apply to all the little false ribs without breaking one or more of them. I've not noticed anything of mention in any builds in either direction. Images would make me think it's not been done.

    Finally, how did you apply to the LLE? I've seen a few have done it. Did you apply glue to the entire surface and activate all at the same time (thus without stretching it) ? Or just in a small area then shrink and apply? What was your method?

    Thanks.
    912 IS
    Airmaster Prop
    Garmin Stack
    C-FKLO

  2. #2
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    2,146

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Keith,

    I did the bottom, then the sides and last the top. As far as looks go, everyone has their own preferences I'm sure. I don't mind the look of the finish tapes, and you've got them all over the airplane anyway. As far as those fuselage corner tapes go, one of the primary purposes of finish tape is to provide additional protection and strength at joints and also over internal structure that contacts the fabric. If you don't want them to show on the sides they won't be covering the entire contact area of the tubing there. That's how I see it anyway.

    I might be reading you wrong, but it seems as though you think it might be OK to apply finish tape underneath the main fabric instead of on top. That's not the way it's done. There is anti-chafe tape for application to underlying structure when there is a need, but just as the term "finish" implies, they go on last, over the main covering. When there is a hard, possibly protruding surface under the fabric, the finish tape protects the main fabric from external contact & abrasion that could possibly damage it.

    FWIW, my LLE is scalloped, and I applied glue just up to the bottom of the scallops. I carefully shrunk behind the leading edge until I had a pretty taunt surface over it, and then started to apply heat & pressure to the LLE to activate that glue. Basically the same thing with the ribs.
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
    Chap. 43 honorary Lifetime

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Mapleton,UT
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Quote Originally Posted by tracstarr View Post
    I've been keeping watch and reading over several build threads where Oratex is involved. I'm just starting mine now and have several unanswered questions...

    Kieth, more than one way to do it as you will get many different opinions. First off, in my opinion, Oratax is a two person job. You will get a much better finish with two people versus trying to do it solo. It can be done solo for sure, but you will get a tighter cleaner finish with two. Remember tighter the better! Some tips. Make sure you read through the tips and tricks from better aircraft as there a lot of good info in there. Biggest problem we had is not getting the little hard bumps. Make sure you have your foam brush wet before starting. Clean the brush as it will start to build up dried chunks that will end up on the fabric. Also on your LLE make sure all the mold release is off it, or it will also cause little bumps.

    I would recommend wings first. They are the easiest and then things get progressively harder from there. Glue the entire LLE. We did bottom of the wing, overlaped 4" to the top. Then did the top overlapped 4" on the bottom side. So the seam is on the bottom. We heated and attached front of fabric on and worked back until the entire LLE was attached. Then stretched it to the back of the wing tight. Sand, and wipe clean the top of the ribs to insure a good structural bond.

    We then covered the bottom, and then cover the sides. I would start with the razor back. So cover the top center to the bottom, then do the other side from the top center to bottom. Then you will only have one visible seam down the middle. You only need finish tape on seams. Some prefer the looks of the finish tape, but there is no need to tape fuselage tubes or ribs. Oratex states in their manual the only places you are required to finish tape is at seams to help add protection of joint failures. No where else is it needed. You can put it where-ever you like, but its very time consuming and not needed. Oratex is not like other fabrics, you don't need anti-chaff tapes. We then did rudder and lastly horizontal stab and elevators. They are the hardest IMO. If you get a wrinkle, keep the heat on it and fix it right then. Sometimes you have to pull it up and stretch it and re-apply. Think through things on how you want things to look. On the horizontal stab and elevator we covered bottom first and then wrapped top to bottom. No visible seems on the top and the finish tape of the seem is on the bottom. Good luck you will be an expert by the end!

    PM me and I am happy to talk anytime. Lars from better aircraft is a great source, also. Call him with questions.
    Dustin Dickerson

    Building 7ss STI x 2
    Oratex
    29" shock monster
    EP912STI 155hp
    Garmin
    N33TF......FLYING!
    N53TF......FLYING!

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Yeah, kinda the way I was lead on. It would end up being 3 layers. The bottom, main layer and then finish. But, it sounds like the anti-chafe is what I should be doing. I'm assuming you did so? And then you glue directly to it the main layer?
    edit From below it sounds like I don't need to do this. It's also not mentioned in manuals - yet a phone call to BAF says I should do it on the ribs. Frustrating. Logically, I would think that if i'm gluing to the ribs there is no need for anti-chafe as it would never rub, it's glued.
    Last edited by tracstarr; 02-23-2019 at 06:46 PM.
    912 IS
    Airmaster Prop
    Garmin Stack
    C-FKLO

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    Kieth, more than one way to do it as you will get many different opinions. First off, in my opinion, Oratax is a two person job.
    Yep got some help for this part!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    Make sure you read through the tips and tricks from better aircraft as there a lot of good info in there.
    I find there is so much contradiction between theirs, the manual from the factory and then actually talking to them. This is the most frustrating thing - and why i'm asking here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    Biggest problem we had is not getting the little hard bumps. Make sure you have your foam brush wet before starting. Clean the brush as it will start to build up dried chunks that will end up on the fabric. Also on your LLE make sure all the mold release is off it, or it will also cause little bumps.
    Yeah, noticed this when doing some tests. I'm finding that going back over the glue after about 10 min and you can knock down the bubbles and bumps pretty easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    We then covered the bottom, and then cover the sides. I would start with the razor back. So cover the top center to the bottom, then do the other side from the top center to bottom. Then you will only have one visible seam down the middle.
    So you only had 2 pieces to do sides/top? I'm assuming you had the additional razor back tube added to keep all seams on something... I don't have that so I am forced to do the top as it's own piece since there is no structure along that seam if i was to do it this way. i think I noticed this in your build pics. Took a few looks to figure out that's what you did though. If i was to plan it out again I'd go that route. I don't think my material would allow for that now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    Oratex is not like other fabrics, you don't need anti-chaff tapes.
    This contradicts what I was told on a call with Paul (i think that's who it was) and then what's (not in) the manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowrider View Post
    We then did rudder and lastly horizontal stab and elevators. They are the hardest IMO. If you get a wrinkle, keep the heat on it and fix it right then. Sometimes you have to pull it up and stretch it and re-apply. Think through things on how you want things to look. On the horizontal stab and elevator we covered bottom first and then wrapped top to bottom. No visible seems on the top and the finish tape of the seem is on the bottom. Good luck you will be an expert by the end!
    Yeah, my plan is to do those last as well.

    I've started with the bottom of the fuselage. It seamed like one of the easier bits, and if i messed up it would be on the bottom and also using a cheaper color. The wings cost twice as much for the color of material.
    912 IS
    Airmaster Prop
    Garmin Stack
    C-FKLO

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Quote Originally Posted by jrevens View Post
    As far as those fuselage corner tapes go, one of the primary purposes of finish tape is to provide additional protection and strength at joints and also over internal structure that contacts the fabric. If you don't want them to show on the sides they won't be covering the entire contact area of the tubing there. That's how I see it anyway.
    this is another frustration as it varies in the manuals and from what I'm told over the phone. My understanding is that you only need tape over seams, no where else and that there is no requirement for them to wrap over the tube where both layers attach. But, at the same time, I'm told it's both needed and not needed over top of ribs on the wing.
    912 IS
    Airmaster Prop
    Garmin Stack
    C-FKLO

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Mapleton,UT
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    I hear you on the variations on what needs to be done. Paul is the sales guy and not as helpful when it comes to install. You want to talk to Lars. He can help you on install questions. Yes if you rub your hand lightly over the dried glue you can fill the bumps and get rid of them. My understanding the older systems you would reinforce over fuselage tubes and ribs to help keep them from tearing through the fabric. I assume you are using 6000? Lars will stress to you over and over this is completely different than other systems and where the finishing tapes are needed. With that being said I guess they are “experimental”🙂
    Dustin Dickerson

    Building 7ss STI x 2
    Oratex
    29" shock monster
    EP912STI 155hp
    Garmin
    N33TF......FLYING!
    N53TF......FLYING!

  8. #8
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Yorba Linda, CA
    Posts
    2,817

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    The way I understood finish tapes was this. On the wing ribs they cover the stitching. On both ribs as well as all the other "fabric touching structure" spaces, finish tapes are the sacrificial layer. I already have one. the finish tape tore but spared the covering fabric.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  9. #9
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    2,146

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    That’s exactly right, Eddie.
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
    Chap. 43 honorary Lifetime

  10. #10
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Arvada, CO
    Posts
    2,146

    Default Re: Oratex - What order did you install the fuselage panels?

    Quote Originally Posted by tracstarr View Post
    Yeah, kinda the way I was lead on. It would end up being 3 layers. The bottom, main layer and then finish. But, it sounds like the anti-chafe is what I should be doing. I'm assuming you did so? And then you glue directly to it the main layer?
    edit From below it sounds like I don't need to do this. It's also not mentioned in manuals - yet a phone call to BAF says I should do it on the ribs. Frustrating. Logically, I would think that if i'm gluing to the ribs there is no need for anti-chafe as it would never rub, it's glued.
    There is no need for anti-chafe tape on the ribs. In fact it wouldn’t be at all good on the ribs that are glued to fabric, and would probably compromise the strength of the glued joint.

    I used very little anti-chafe tape on the entire project - only on very specific areas where I thought there was a probability of movement between structure & fabric.

    Just a quick comment or two about finish tape. I never heard Lars say that they were unnecessary, and I talked to him a lot during my project. We talked about finish tapes a lot. I believe I was one of the first to use Oratex on a Kitfox that was documented on this forum. Yes, Oratex is a little different, but it is still a fabric with a lot of similarity to PolyFiber. The process of covering, doing rib-lacing, using finish tapes, specific minimum overlaps at joints, etc., etc. have been developed, used, proven & certified over many decades. In every picture I have seen of Oratex covering jobs done by the company in Germany, they have used finish tapes. If Lars is now saying that they are optional, that is new to me. I’d want to see that in writing from the factory. Many conversations ended with the admonition that when in doubt, follow the same guidelines specified by PolyFiber & other major suppliers regarding these things. The glue system and the temperatures for glue activation and shrinking fabric are unique to Oratex.
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
    Chap. 43 honorary Lifetime

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •