First Timer' Annoying Questions

[aviator79]

Two years is reasonable, but certainly better than average. Especially if you don't yet have kids, and if you will enjoy doing it for its own sake, certainly achievable. You'll need to do something pretty much every day for two years.

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

If you do decide to buy one, line up everything you need in advance. Make sure the funds you intend to use are liquid, know who will do your prepurchase inspection, how much insurance will cost, how you're going to retrieve it, etc before you even start looking. When you see the perfect plane, you will need to literally be on the phone the moment you see the posting, or it will be someone else's.

[HighWing]

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

[Cherrybark]

Where you build the plane can make a big difference both in the calendar time required and the probability of completion. I'm fortunate to be building in an air conditioned & heated, attached garage so it is a comfortable, convenient environment year round. Being able to walk through a door and be in the middle the project is very nice. If it were a 30 minute drive to an airport hanger, motivation would start to slip.

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

[Esser]

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

Two years already Carl?!? Time flies!

[kitfox2009]

Hi Far Fox
Seeing as we are telling stories, here`s an abbreviated version of mine. I got me PPL in Watson Lake Yukon in 1962 when I was 22 years and single. Started on my Commercial the next year but got married shortly after and helped my wife raise 2 kids. Spent a number of years in the northern mining industry. Did not fly much for next 50 years!!
My wife then reminded me that if I was ever going to "fly again" time was running out.

After doing something similar to what you are up, to I decided it would very unlikely that I would get much flying in if I was to build from scratch or complete someone else`s project, even though I really wanted to BUILD.

Anyway I found a beautifully built Vixen with a 912UL (thought I wanted a conventional gear 100 HP) that had just over 100 hours and very reasonably priced. There was no way I could have built the quality for that price and it was ready to fly!!

I now have close to 800 hours on it, never added oil between changes, average about 15 liters at 100MPH, fly over the Rockies and out to Vancouver Island a few times each year. Even flew to the Yukon a couple of years ago. It was a long 1 day trip each way because of incoming weather. A cool 100 plus HP with tail wheel would nice, but, Hey "I am flying". That was much more important to me.
Over the years I have found life is full of compromise. I would never have had the time or usually the money during my younger years.

Also I don`t want to be negative, but I don`t think my Yukon trip would have been much fun with 2 dogs as well as my tent, sleeping bag, survival gear and clothes for a week or so. Pretty tight fit and I use a relief tube. Might have fun fitting one on the dogs, I have enough trouble because "relief and turbulence" seem to go hand in hand.

I really have to admire you "builders" and you partners. You both need DEDICATION and I imagine tolerance at times.
Have fun and welcome to this great bunch of Kitfoxers.
Cheers
Don

[PapuaPilot]

It took me exactly 2 years and 1200-1300 hours to finish my plane, which I bought second hand with about 20% of the work done. I did have to redo some of the work though, including removing corrosion that had occurred over the 14 years since the first owner bought it.

I'm not the fastest, but have been and A&P for 35+ years and had a lot of things available at the hanger where I work (machine shop, powder coat booth, paint booth, tools, etc.). All of these things saved time, plus I didn't have to learn everything for the first time.

As several have mentioned the best way to complete it is to do something every day, even if it is just researching, reading, surfing for info, etc. The hours I mentioned for building were only for doing the construction, not the research and reading.

Before you start you need to decide if you have the time (10-20 hrs/week for 2-5 years), money ($60-80k), tenacity, tools (more $), location (maybe doing some reno) and the willingness to learn lots of new things (maybe some seminars, joining EAA and going to Oshkosh . . . more time & $). You shouldn't give up everything in life to build a plane, but I decided I could give up a lot of TV, computer time, other hobbies, etc. to get it done ASAP. During the build I was really motived to get the other "must do" and "honey do" things done so I could maximize my evenings and weekends. It really has a lot to do with motivation and use of your time. Like others have said having the place where you can just go out and work on it makes a huge difference. I did most of it in our garage. I was also able to go to work early or stay late to take advantage of the hanger & equipment available.

Even as an A&P I decided to keep away from certified aircraft due to the aging aircraft issues, costs of parts, potential for ADs, etc. I have been working with certified planes my whole career, so I have a pretty good idea of the costs and problems that could happen. As an A&P-IA I didn't have to worry about the cost for inspections and repairs, but it still seemed too expensive to get a 30 to 70 year old plane when I could build a brand new zero time Kitfox for the same price or less then a certified plane.

Even better yet my new Kitfox is far better equipped than any used plane I might have chosen. Avionics for experimental planes cost far less than it would for a certified plane. I believe it would have cost 2-3x more to install the same type equipment in a certified plane.

FYI its been a couple of years since I finished my Kitfox and I picked up a used Wag-Aero Sport Trainer (Cub) to rebuild. I really enjoyed the whole process and am going to do this with a bunch of guys at my EAA chapter. But, I am leaving plenty of time to fly my Kitfox too.

[Far_Fox]

Wow, Thank you everyone so far who has shared a story. This has already been the biggest help in the decision making process.

I remember sitting in my Daytona Beach, FL apartment the day before my 18th birthday. I had no bed, no furniture and a pack of Ramon noodles in the microwave. It was the first week I arrived, and I thought to myself "wow I am going to become a pilot here, how cool is this". Little did I know how the world worked, and how hard it was to be that age and make any kind of money besides minimum wage. Paying for a phone bill and an apartment working two jobs (Bubba Gump Shrimp Company, and Abercrombie and Fitch) was next to impossible. That year I learned a lot about how important saving money was, how hard it is to earn it, and how easy it is to spend it on Bills. I met some amazing friends from Norway, Barbados, Germany and Sweden. After a year and just short of my private license, I decided the school was just sucking money out of my aviation loan account rather then actually trying to get me done quickly and for the least amount of money. I was tired of barely making rent, working two jobs and eating Ramon noodles. That is when I heard about this flight school in Bainbridge, GA called Ag-Flight. It had free housing, and they did not charge you per hour for the plane. It was one fixed amount, and you could fly as much as you want. To me this was real flying, no auto pilot, just stick n tail planes. It was also very southern and rural which I enjoyed. Each morning I would wake up, fly over lake Seminole to check out the gators, touch my wheels on the water, fly the river back, do touch and goes, short field landings, run one wheel down the runway and just simply had fun. It was a different way to spend 3 years of my life at that age when most of my friends were in college. I did not have a lot of friends, could not really relate to many others my age but the small young aviation community of people I met, I still talk to now. I have traveled to Norway, Sweden, Germany and many other places hanging out with the guys I learned to fly with. Even now, each summer I travel over seas to spend time with them. Only one of those friends still actually is flying today. I would like to try and bring back a fresh vibe to the aviation community, showing others they can build a new plane, with modern avionics for cheaper then you think. I want to film and promote Back-country flying adventures and explore new areas that most people don't get to. This all takes a steady job, and that is why I have been focused on career and college since then to set me up for something better in the future. I have worked in quality for 8 years now, working my way up to lead IATF 16949 auditor and Quality Engineer for small company while going to school for Chemical engineering.


Now its about the right time I think. I will start my LLC here in the next couple months and my first contract Job is suppose to start in July. This will allow me to have a flexible schedule, choose days to work etc. I think this will allow me some decent time to work on the plane each afternoon as well as weekends. The girl friend might get frustrated but if we can survive through this experience then perhaps shes marriage material right?


The down side is, the airport down the street is more of an executive airport and it is not really small plane friendly (from what I have heard). So the best place and home of our EAA chapter is a 30 minute drive. I do not have the garage space right now to work on a plane, and would have to rent a hanger for at least a year. Next year my girlfriend and I will be moving into a bigger place with a workshop. Once this happens it will makes things easier.

I have decided if it takes me 3 years, that is not so bad. I would rather have a new kit, then pick up the left overs of someone else (just me). I really wish someone would video document the build processes of a kitfox, I have not found anything besides a couple of time lapses on youtube. I will enjoy the build, take my time and not stress about build time (deep breaths).

I will list my house in the next week or two, once that sells I will pay off that aviation loan from 12 years ago (yay), and another student loan. I wont have much left but my monthly bills will now be reduced by thousands. Yes, those damn student loan payments. This will be the time slot between getting married and having kids where I feel it is right to start a build.

I wont be able to drop $20k on the first kit right away so I am hoping the aviation loan company can work something decent out for me with good credit. If I can get payments down to around 400$ a month or so then I will go ahead and drop in my order. If the payments are more like $600 that's not practical yet...then I will have to wait till next year to just pay cash. I will keep everyone posted, if I can make this happen I will start a vlog of the build.

I enjoy reading your stories, and thank you for sharing them with the new guy!

[aviator79]

At the risk of turning this thread into a bunch of stories about how we all came to be where we are, I'll share my story, as it parallels yours, at least to a point.

I started flying when I was 16. The Civil Air Patrol gave me a scholarship to get me through my first solo flight. After that, I took a job mopping hangar floors, scrubbing oily bellies, and pumping gas to fund my flight training. The place I worked had a couple super cubs, and the first thing I did after getting my Private cert was to get a tailwheel endorsement in those cubs (N57528 and N4101E, my first true loves in aviation.) There was a rich and vibrant homebuilt and aerobatics community at KCHD, and I dreamed of building a plane some day. When I graduated High School, I spent a semester at Embry-Riddle in Prescott, AZ. Unfortunately, tragedy in my family left me unable to afford Embry-Riddle, so I went back to Chandler, got my job at the airport back, and started school at Arizona State while working on my additional ratings. I earned my CFI and started working as an instructor while I finished my degree. I was so poor, but dang those were fun times. I graduated in May 2001, and in August 2001, at age 22, got hired with American Eagle. It turns out that August of 2001 was a really bad time to try to start an airline career...

So, I did some instructing again, but the industry was in pretty bad shape. I also had a brief glimpse into the life of an airline pilot, and decided that maybe it wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So I went back to school, got a whole pile of degrees while working various jobs and internships, getting married and sprouting a couple kids. Then, I finally got my first "real" job here in Los Alamos, NM just about 5 years ago. During those 5 years, I helped get a flying club started up here, and finally, at age 39, find myself in a position where I can afford the expenditure of both time and money to build a Kitfox.

It was not something I rushed into. It took a whole lot of planning on how it would fit into my every aspect of my life. It has to fit in my garage, but also into my finances, and into my relationships with my wife and my kids.

I do think that in terms of timing, getting an airplane built before you have kids will make managing your time a little easier, and you'll have an brand new airplane to fly for most of your life. Getting and early start is great. If you're moving in with your girlfriend, it's serious enough that you should not be too flippant about how this affects her and your relationship with her. You should make sure that building an airplane is something she is fully on board with, and that she understands the time and money that you intend to spend on it.

Also, even though it sounds like you are eager, it also sounds like one year from now, many unknown variables in your life will become known. You'll know where you stand with your student loans, your house will be sold, and you'll actually have a workable space in which to build. You'll never get that hangar rent back, and your progress will likely be slow if you have a 30 minute drive each way to get to your project. On the one hand, if you wait until the "perfect" time to start, you'll be outside the fence looking and dreaming forever. On the other hand, one year, in the grand scheme, is a trivially short amount of time to spend tying up loose ends and planning for a large expenditure of time and money.

Just my $0.02, and I'm a long way off from being able to claim that I have any special knowledge about how to successfully complete a build.

[aviator79]

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

This is a very good point Lowell, and EAA's defintion of "unsuccessful" may include those settled out of court. And it could definitely ruin someone to defend himself legally, even if the legal outcome were in his favor. I have not heard of, nor can I find, any anecdotes of this happening, much less an aggregated list that I would call data.

The poster was told he could not sell his airplane, and all evidence is to the contrary. Amateur-built aircraft are sold routinely. The practical reality is that if you aren't insured against such a claim, you are *probably* a small legal target. But as you point out, it's always worth recognizing that there is nothing you can do to completely absolve yourself of liability if you sell someone something with which he can kill or maim himself. Caveat Venditor

[fathom]

I'll jump in on this since I am in the same boat as the original poster. I'm 26, just received my private pilot license in June of '17 and have been dying to own/build a plane for quite awhile. Though the Kitfox wasn't something that immediately jumped out at me, one came available locally and after some thought and a ton of research, it was apparent that it was a deal that couldn't be passed up and this plane would be the IDEAL aircraft to own/build at this stage in my life.

At this point, I purchased a Model IV kit in virtually an unstarted state back in Nov '17, a week before my 26th birthday. I'm engaged and getting married in May '18. To top it all off, I'm an active duty member of the U.S. Coast Guard and we will be moving in April '18. To make matters worse, I will be attending Naval Flight Training to become a Coast Guard aviator. So to say that I've thrown myself into a hurricane of life changing events would be quite an understatement.

The BIGGEST thing I used to measure the risk associated with building an aircraft in a turbulent point of life is/was support from my fiancée. When my CFI met her, he IMMEDIATELY started pulling her into our "airplane-world" and was able to "sell" flying to her as a fun activity that was meant to be enjoyed in GROUPs. We both attended Osh '17 and LOVED it and she got extremely excited about the thought of building after attending some workshops. She didn't have much interest in aviation until we met but that has very much changed. I may say "I" a lot when referring to this build, but in reality it should be "we." If your girlfriend shows even the tiniest bit of interest in aviation, get her onboard and get her excited-Oshkosh is a PERFECT chance for that-and turn it into a group project and learn together rather than a single man's game. My fiancée plans to start Sport Pilot training after our wedding and get some confidence in an aircraft so that it is something that she continues to enjoy and be excited about rather than an activity that her new husband does behind a closed garage door.

As for the build, I can't tell you much about the process yet. I've spent about 60hrs just cleaning/inventorying/identifying what's missing. I’ve purchased a new build manual from Kitfox and ordered all new AN hardware that has been sitting on the plane for the past 20years. We will start full speed ahead after our wedding with a goal to have her flying by my 30th birthday. We plan to blog our build really as a means to share it with those who have been with us from the start, but also as a means to document and learn (and hopefully help someone else).

TL;DR-Get your woman involved and make it a team goal, not an individual goal. A group of likeminded individuals who share a common goal is a lot more productive/innovative than just a group of individuals.