Some Kitfox Questions

[rosslr]

Dear Flienlow,

Once again the Kitfox group here have kicked in generously with their time and experience. And I am sure there will be others yet to do so, particularly in regard to the float Qs.

However, I note that you conducted a similar exercise on this forum in 2012, asking very similar Qs and getting similar responses. I cant help but wonder if you are not entertaining yourself by getting the group here to jump hoops for your entertainment!? I hope not. In the spirit of openness I would have appreciated it if you declared this is the second time you have posted such Q's and explained the reasons for doing so 4-5 years after the first round to allay any thoughts that this is just a theoretical exercise on your behalf.

That said, I hope you find the responses useful and that you make a decision soon that you can live with comfortably.

cheers
ross

[Ramos]

Ross, I can't answer for Flienlow. However, your post could apply to me to a certain degree. Some of us have the passion and the determination and even concrete plans. Then, you get up one day and life gives you an unexpected/unwelcome surprise. Next thing you know, all this fun stuff is delayed. Please don't exclude those of us who have yet to achieve ownership. You guys are key players in keeping the likes of me moving forward. I can't tell you if I will be purchasing in the next 12 months for sure. I hope so, and I BELIEVE so. That being said, I have a limited budget and commitments that have to come first and they don't always go as expected or hoped for. I do not believe that makes me a 'poser' or less than sincere or, a person who does not value other people's time.

If I had to pay you guys what your time is worth, I'd never have anything left over to purchase an aircraft!

Respectfully,
Jon Ramos

[PaulSS]

Regarding Q4, I think it's worth taking a look at the MGL product. Certainly significantly cheaper and more options to configure and change things to your design. It's not necessarily easy as the manual is not well written but, thanks to some great videos and information from a very helpful chap on the MGL Forum, it is suddenly making a lot more sense and give you a chance to do things that you cannot with Garmin, Dynon etc. I think the likes of these companies have a more polished result in their displays but you pay for it and then continue paying with all the updates etc, whereas with MGL you can do a lot of it yourself.

[Delta Whisky]

Flienlow - when talking money with a spousal unit, some of us convert costs into AMUs. (Aviation Monetary Unit) Although more stable than the Bit Coin, it's daily value floats and isn't traded on the commodities market so conversion can't be accurately determined. Having said that, most of us recognize 1 AMU is roughly $1K. HTH with one of your questions. - if you get my drift.

[av8rps]

I can appreciate those that take their time in determining what diection they want to go with their aircraft decisions. So even if these are repeat questions from years ago I don't have a problem if we discuss it again, as we probably will come up with new, additional information that can help the poster as well as others that may have similar questions.

I'm a seaplane guy, so I'll try to adress his questions or concerns regarding that aspect as briefly as I can. If others want more info about that I'd be happy to answer more in later posts.

First, a new Kitfox built reasonably light would make a phenomenal seaplane. If flown experimental at 1550 lbs you could have a 750 lb airplane with an 800 lb usefull load. And for the record there are newer model Kitfoxes on amphibs that the builders set gross weight at 1750 lbs and have operated that way for years quite safely. Very few planes can boast having the ability to carry up to 133% of its own empty weight.

And a big benefit of the 912 Kitfox is that you only need to carry around 25 or 30 lbs of fuel an hour because it burns such little gas, so most of that 800 lb (or up to 1000 lb) usefull load can be used for carrying floats, people, and gear. Oh, and a set of amphib floats will typically only add 175 to 200 lbs to the empty weight of the aircraft. So the available payload is really quite useful

So lets compare that to your average production plane. A Cessna 185 will burn 100 lbs of fuel an hour, and a set of amphib floats will add 675 to 750 lbs to empty weight. So that 300 hp Cessna becomes a good 2 seat airplane, 3 maybe? A friend with a Cessna 180 on Edo 2705 amphibs has a 714 lb useful load. Do the math of what that can haul after putting 4 hours of fuel in it and you will find a Kitfox amphib will haul at least as much. Plus, aside from top speed, the Kitfox will perform better, and all on about 1/3 the amount of fuel.

Another friend has a 180 hp amphib Husky and it only has a 384 lb useful load. At 10 gph with 4 hrs of fuel, it legally can't even haul a pilot unless he weighs less than 145 lbs. And a Husky is perceived as a premium seaplane in that community. And for the record, a Super Cub can't legally haul what a Husky can. So dont' let them fool you, by comparison a Kitfox can make for a very practical, good performing, and super cost effective, FUN seaplane.

But if you really need 4 seats and you want amphibs, you're gonna need a Beaver. For that you'll need 30 gallons an hour and a half million dollars. Oh, and the Kitfox is likely to pass it in cruise flight

[alanr]

I would like to chime in here with the length of time decision making process.
In 2014 I came within a hairs breadth of placing an order for a SS7. Probably I upset John McBean at the time due to me messing him around. I am in the UK and £/$ exchange rate was very good at the time and I bitterley regret not doing it. My family talked me out of it!...A bad move listening!
Having built and owned a Sportcruiser previously I went off and built a Bristell NG5, its a quickbuild kit here in the UK, it took me 18months and its great..I love it.
However I still want to build a Kitfox!!.....But now the £/$ exchange rate is awful and the kit will cost me far too much if I keep the Bristell.
I keep returning to this forum though and wishing..If only I had done it back in 2014 because I still want one!...I keep thinking and hoping that one day I will. Sometimes perhaps you just have to go for these things and to hell with the consequences....

[Flienlow]

If you go Light Sport, the SS7 at about 820 lbs empty+ 160 full fuel+ 2x200 people, adds up to 1380 lbs, so you see you already exceed the 1320 lb limit and you have no capacity for any baggage. So to make this work you will be flying your fishing trips with only 1/2 fuel in the tanks. At the 1550 lb rating you are in fine shape with full fuel and enough extra capacity for 170 lbs of baggage (which by the way you will not be able to use all because of rear CG limits). I have not figured in the weight of floats.
.

'
The only difference between these 2 is documentation correct? When you buy the kit it is rated for 1550lbs and tested to 1700lbs. What is to stop you from registering it E-LSA and operate at the higher gross?
-I suppose technically this would be illegal, but just about every C-150 out there does the same thing.

You can always register it as E-AB later correct? If I understand this correctly for our purposes (KITFOX AC) If you would want to add a constant Speed Prop, or make air frame modifications, that is when it would need to be registered EAB? I am sure there is more such as does KitFox include lighting and ect in the standard build? What other things would you want that may force you into building EAB?

From my internet Scroungings:
EAB: You are the builder. You will be the only person eligible for the repairman certificate. No class requirement for repairman certificate. Minimum 40 hour phase I. May make any mods you like. Mods that take the aircraft out of LSA parameters make the aircraft ineligible for sport pilots.

ELSA: KF is the builder. You and any subsequent owner may take 16 hr class for repairman certificate. Minimum 5 hour phase I. Must build exactly per plans. Modifications after certifications as long as the mods don't take the aircraft out of LSA parameters. Mods that take the aircraft out of LSA parameters make the airworthiness certificate void.

[avidflyer]

Whether you build and list it as having a gross weight of 1550 or 1320, you will still want to be in the experimental amateur built category. It's not the category the plane is registered in that makes it legal for a sport pilot to fly it, but whether that plane physically meets the limits established for sport pilots. (gross weight, number of seats, stall speed, ect, ect) JImChuk

[Frontier Fox]

[QUOTE=jiott;69893]
The useful load issue is probably the weakest point of the Kitfox, as well as any Light Sport aircraft at 1320 lbs gross, so if you don't need the Light Sport rating I would highly recommend you build and register the Kitfox at its max engineered rating of 1550 lbs.

Hey Jim

I’m a little confused on this point. Maybe you can straighten me out.
What is the advantage of having a Light Sport aircraft? Does it have to do with your rating? I am getting my private pilot so would it be best to get my future build rated at 1550?
Is there a difference in the way the kit is built? And last will I be able to perform repairs and annual inspections.

Thanks

Joe G

[Esser]

If you are a private pilot go with the 1550. There is no real benefit to handicap your machine to only 1320 if you don’t need it. Plus now you can have an in flight adjustable or constant speed prop too. If you build you can do all the repair work and inspections.

The LSA has lighter duty gear. That’s the only physical difference.