Advice on buying Kitfox

[Bud Davidson]

All good advice. First establish , as suggested, the mission.
I used a ground adjustable IVO on my 4 place homebuilt and when it went on amphib I adjusted for the desirable power on take off. I will use an IVO with the Kitfox in hopes it serves me as well.
In nearly 20 years flying the homebuilt I only had one person ever in the back seat... Was usually occupied by my Lab.
The Kitfox has been a satisfying building experience and nearly as complex as my earlier plans built...its much better organized requiring way less design headaches.
Expect to be finished in September... But who knows??
Bud

[ppilotmike]

Basic med does not work for me. My "family" doc will not put her "John Henry" on any form that involves flying. I am very happy flying LSA because at my age and physical condition I no longer want or need to fly long distances. When I did I had a great Mooney M20C that did the job well. I love my little Kitfox for my current mission. Mike

[jwinner]

I went the basic med route even though I could easily get a third class. If one doc won't do it, I'm sure you can find one who will. I believe some of the AMEs are doing it too. This way I only have to go back every four years too.

I really like the LSA driver license medical just for less government red tape, so I was also looking at a kitfox 7ss. Very nice aircraft. I ended up deciding to go with a kit with too high of a gross to fall under those rules (rans s-21 outbound, 1800lbs)

Certified is nice, but I didn't want to pass up on the build experience, maintenance, and annual inspection benefits of an amateur built kit.

[av8rps]

While I have always liked Maules, I don't think they are really comparable to a Kitfox. Here's my short list why I think a Kitfox would be a superior recreational airplane for two people; (ok, maybe not a short list...)

- Purchase price will be much less if comparing apple to apples. In other words, don't compare a new Kitfox to an old Maule. A new Kitfox will be less than a new Maule, and a used Kitfox will generally be less money than a used Maule. And don't kid yourself, the $50,000 used Maule is likely to need some work. Plan on more like $80,000 to get a decent one. By comparison, a 50K used Kitfox is likely to be a nice airplane that isn't likely to need any big dollar repairs anytime soon.

- Operational costs between a Kitfox and a Maule are for sure apples and oranges. I own a certified factory built aircraft in addition to my Kitfox, and the cost to maintain it is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than maintaining my Kitfox. And when you own a factory built aircraft you will learn to hate checking your mail, as when they send those nice little mandatory "Airworthiness Directives" you know it's going to be a lot of money for something that probably doesn't even need to be done. I once paid 10 grand for a 4 pound box of bolts and 8 short pieces of 4130 strapping to comply with a "wing spar reinforcement" that even the chief engineer of the company said wasn't needed on my airplane. But unfortunately, the FAA decided to include every model in the AD, whether it was needed or not. And the odd thing is that most of us were happy to pay 10k for a box of bolts, as the first idea the company and the FAA had was to replace both of the wings, at $130,000 EACH! Another example, the engine has had 5 AD's for the oil pump gears to be replaced, each time using a different combination of gear materials, only to end up with generally the same set up the engine came with. And that engine is known as one of the most reliable, bulletproof in the industry. Just pay attention to classified ads for the factory built planes "Crank AD complied", "Prop AD complied", "Tail reinforcement AD done", etc, etc. Owners spend a lot of money, and time on AD's. You will never get a mandatory AD on a Kitfox experimental as that doesn't exist since you are the manufacturer. You will get service bulletins, but compliance is at your discretion (and hopefully good common sense). And if you built the plane yourself, it typically is not a huge deal as you can do it yourself and save labor costs.

- While an average stock Maule will operate out of a 900 ft field, if there are any obstructions the pucker factor will be high. 900 ft with obstructions will not be great in a Kitfox either, but the pucker factor will be a lot less for sure. There is no question that an average Kitfox will go in and out of a smaller place than an average Maule. It's really pretty simple, the Maule has a lot more speed and inertia than the Kitfox, so it needs more room. I used to fly a very light Avid Flyer (predecessor to Kitfox) out of a 300 ft model airplane runway on my dads farm for years (with two people many times), and not once was it a big deal. My buddy that owns an early and light 180 Cessna always said he was going to do it just to show me he could go in and out as easily as I could, but after flying a few approaches he forfeited our bet, admitting it was too tight.

- I fly my Kitfox 912 powered amphib currently for around $10 an hour in fuel. I would anticipate a Maule will burn 5 to 6 times that, or more. Mess up a prop on a Maule? Expect to spend 8-10k to fix that problem (assuming you didn't also damage the crankshaft, that would be another 15-25K). A NEW prop for a Kitfox would be anywhere from $700 to 3k depending on how fancy you want to get. And assuming it was a 912, a prop strike is not likely to damage the crankshaft, but you may need to go through the gear box for probably 2-3k.

- Storage? I can fit 3 or 4 Kitfoxes in a standard hangar with the wings folded. Heck, I don't even need a hangar. A garage or an enclosed trailer works. Anticipate 15 minute for getting her ready to fly, and you are good to go. Storage area not an issue? Well let me tell you, if you ever have a breakdown somewhere it is a pretty handy option to know you can haul it home on a U-Haul trailer if you need to (you can haul a Maule home if you take it all apart, but you won't have it ready to trailer in 15 minutes). Oh, and traveling with your folded wing Kitfox behind your motorhome is a blast. Nothing like discovering the country with your plane and your camper.

- LSA vs the new Medical option; Unless you need more seats, or have a high desire to go really fast, the LSA option is pretty hard to beat. As long as you have a drivers license you are good to go. No red tape or strings attached. Want a 1550 lb gross weight Kitfox? Well then you will need to do the new medical, as it exceeds the LSA max flying weight. But at least you will have all the other benefits of a Kitfox yet.

- Versatility; My 80 hp Kitfox amphib is a blast. I commonly fly with friends that have Husky amphibs, which can easily hit 400k to obtain new, and $150k for an older used one (that incidentally can't legally haul two people, as typically will only have a 380 lb useful load, but burns 60 lbs of fuel an hour). I put my Kitfox amphib together by buying a project and finding a used set of floats. So I have a whole 25k in it with a bunch of sweat equity (although realistically it is probably worth twice that today?) and I can do everything their Husky's can, on less than half the fuel. And I beat them off the water so bad it is embarrassing to them (so I don't do that anymore). Oh, and just imagine if I put 4 grand and an afternoon worth of effort to put a Zipper kit into my 912 to increase the horsepower by 35%! Then I'd have a real rocketship. With all that said, find another airplane that can do what my little 80 hp Kitfox can do. You'll be hard pressed to even come close. And of course you can put amphibs on a Maule, but you will need something like an M6 - 260 to make it perform on amphibs. And you won't find one of them for 50k. The floats alone are likely to cost that much.

I could go on and on why I think the Kitfox is such a great personal aircraft, but I think you get the drift. And hey, I'm not bashing the Maule, as I said earlier I like Maules. But the hassles associated with owning another factory built aircraft is likely to keep me from ever owning one. For the pure enjoyment of flying, the Kitfox is truly a premium aircraft.

And the low costs associated with operating a Kitfox is one of the things I like best. You can go out for 3 or 4 hours of flying and only burn 10 to 15 gallons of fuel, so you'll never have to feel guilty for draining the family's funds a couple hundred dollars every time you go out.

There's a reason the GA crowd refers to their flying as the $100 hamburger... and today it is more like the $200 hamburger. But in a Kitfox, the hamburger is more like $25

[Timberwolf]

Owners spend a lot of money, and time on AD's. You will never get a mandatory AD on a Kitfox experimental as that doesn't exist since you are the manufacturer. You will get service bulletins, but compliance is at your discretion (and hopefully good common sense).

Have to disagree with you here. Look up the Navworx AD for experimental aircraft. I'm in the process of getting bent over by the FAA on this one for adopting adsb early. Last time I will ever do that.

I do agree with you on most of the other points, but to me there are a bunch more aircraft out there with much more utility than a kit fox with a much lower price point. $50-70k for a newer KF is crazy to me for a tube and fabric 100 mph aircraft. I recently bought an IFR rv-6 with a new IO-360 angle valve and hartzell constant speed for less. Mission will ultimately drive the decision, but I would rather have an aircraft that is cheaper and able to accomplish my primary mission as well as have plenty of other utility when I need it. To me the KF is limited to cruising around the patch in the evening when winds are fairly calm and limited to one passenger, at best. At least with a rans with tandem seating 2 adults can fit in comfortably.

If you want to see a maule that outperforms a KF in all arenas look up Greg Swingle. Big rocks and long props.

So back to the OP what is your mission outside of operating from a 900' strip?

[AirFox]

What are you talking about? Get some experience with a Kitfox in the "Greg Swingle arena" You might revise your opinion. Nuts!!!

[av8rps]

From Timberwolf; "I Have to disagree with you here. Look up the Navworx AD for experimental aircraft. I'm in the process of getting bent over by the FAA on this one for adopting adsb early. Last time I will ever do that"

I have to admit that I was not aware of that Navworx AD. But it is apparent that the FAA may have gone off the deep end on this one, as it is not at all common to have an AD be mandated for an experimental aircraft. Imho this is a classic case of the FAA overstepping their bounds. And while I can understand them wanting properly functioning ADSB units, they shouldn't be going off willy nilly with new rules they just make up. Things like that should really concern all of us experimental fans, as them making an AD apply to experimentals in this case is the equivalent to allowing the camel to put his nose under the tent...not good.

But hey, thanks for that info as I know a bunch of good people at the FAA and I'm going to "express my opinion" on this issue. It is still America after all.

[Tom Waid]

From the AD

"The FAA has chosen to minimize regulations on experimental aircraft because of the level of the safety risk, these risks normally apply to the individual airplane and do not affect the overall NAS. The safety risks defined in this AD extend beyond one aircraft and could affect many other aircraft as well as ATC. Therefore, we find it necessary to include experimental aircraft in the AD's applicability."

This is the FAA's reason for applying this AD to experimental aircraft. If navworx doesn't come up with a solution I'm stuck with a $1,700 piece of junk.

We might want to create a new navworx thread.

[Slyfox]

ok, a maule being different then a kitfox to fly. boy, I needed to do some flying in a maule, oh a big one, next to a kitfox. that baby was pretty tame. not as quick on the controls, but I did it real nice. In fact I did very good. operating cost of a kitfox, can't be beat. but if I put my rv7 down to the speed of the kitfox, mine does 120mph. the rv7 will burn way less fuel. which airplane do I like to fly. I've said it before, whatever hangar I go into at the time. I personally can't do without either one.
whenever you build a plane, it will cost a fortune. If you can buy a nice kitfox, do it. What you need to do is figure out what YOU want and go for it. forget this or that and just do it. If your size is an issue then go to a big flyin like OSH and see them, sit in them. try them out for you. then decide.

Now as far as ADSB. that's an electronic thing. always, always, always wait on buying something. let them get the bugs out and also for the PRICE and OPTIONS to be better. After all the standard transponder is still working and there is 3 more years. A whole bunch is going to come out between now and then. This kid is going to wait. nuff said.

[efwd]

Wow Timberwolf. Your one person spin around the patch in calm air comment probably resonates loudly with some folks here. How's Two people with gear from Idaho to the Bahamas fit that? Or across the Australian continent with two people and gear.