Kitfox abrupt departure sensitivity to low speed stalls

[jonstark]

I operate three Cessna 180/182. The 64G has the standard wing, the 56 182 has MASA and WingX, and the 56 180 has Sportsman. The Sportsman equipped is my personal favorite. Slow flight is simply amazing! Stall horn blaring at 45mph indicated and still very controllable. If anything it increased my cruise speed. A Sportsman wing WILL stall though. Any wing will. Don't kid yourself!

Sportsman isn't available for any Kitfox aircraft. It is a certified modification. I'm sure Will Stene there can answer any questions you may have though.

You might contact Joa Harrison with landshorter.com about his Vortex Generators. I intend to install a set soon after flying my IV to compare before and after characteristics. They have worked wonders on another aircraft I fly.

Jon

[Av8r3400]

I think you'll find that the "stall spin" accident scenario is common across the board on all aircraft. There is nothing inherently wrong with the Kitfox wing or it's configuration that proper pilot training wouldn't solve.

These are STOL designed aircraft meant for these activities. The most important part is proper training and experience at altitude prior to doing these maneuvers near the ground.

A sportsman cuff is an attempt at fixing a non-problem with this plane.

[Esser]

Don't mean to be rude James but get some spin training. I can't recommend it enough. It still blows my mind that this isn't a basic requirement to get a pilot license in the US of A. I don't even consider myself checked out in an airplane unless I spin it and get a feel for how it feels behind the power curve. Of course some planes you can't safely do this. For sure this one thing won't save you completely but it's a good start. For example, after I spun an SZD-55 glider, I had a tonne of respect for getting it low and slow cause it will drop 800' in a blink of an eye. And after that. I never ever put it close to a wing drop situation because I knew the outcome.

I also think that most plans max accidents are low and slow. Kitfox has zero documented inflight structural failures. The rest comes down to pilot error or power issues.

If everyone wanted a plane that flew like a 170, we would all own 170s.

[jamesbdunn]

Don't mean to be rude James but get some spin training. I can't recommend it enough.

Based on everyone's input, I'm definitely going to investigate the details of installing the equivalent of a Sportsman Stall kit. Which I guess begins with contacting my local FAA Inspector.

For those who advised against modification, your input was equally as valuable. Providing me with perspectives I might not otherwise have considered. My choice is biased by my personality, to take on new projects.

I understand to avoid a low altitude spin, that about 20 mph of additional speed is desired above Vso before climbing out of ground effect, to offset the likelihood of a tail wind gust; in the case of a headwind, wind dying out; and in case of turbulent crosswinds and different wind directions above the treeline.

On takeoff the likelihood of recovering from a spin is unlikely.

My interest is in being better "equipped" to deal with rogue conditions. And be able to fly closer to the edges of expected performance, without abrupt consequences. I want to feel an expected approach to a flight limit, and have the time and performance resources available to respond.

I have received spin training, and I agree it should be required as part of certification. However, I can see how it might cause the cost of liability insurance for flight instructors to increase. Once a student learns spin recovery, bad judgement might cause more accidents during training. Where the student because of the fun factor, attempts spins during training on their own. Or recently certified pilots taking joy rides with passengers and doing spins without sufficient practiced experience. Hard call, because of legal system, insurance, and human factors.

I remember my first spin. The instructor asked if I studied the procedure; I had. He talked me through entering the spin, but did not prompt me on what to do. I knew what I was "supposed" to do. But my senses were overwhelmed. After struggling a couple of rotations I asked the instructor to recover; which he did in about 8 seconds.

He then did a spin and talked me through what he was doing, and why. He recovered.

Then he had me set up and enter a spin. This time my senses knew what to expect and it was cake. .... More like cake with frosting topped with Skittles !!

I really liked it and asked to do another spin. I couldn't help it ... I yelped Yeeee Haaaa

I did a couple more and our instruction was finished.

I felt so empowered to learn something in so short a time that previously put me on edge, to give me a total feeling of control.

But I'm not arrogant (loathing of others), I know my feeling of control can come back and bite me unless I stay diligent, and learn more from others.

===========

I'm a newbie. So if more experience chimes in here, I certainly take no offense.

When I sold my Varieze the pilot had many more hours of experience than I had. I warned him that to set down on the numbers he had to set up to land long before the numbers and bleed off ground speed because the Varieze floats in ground effect forever if above 70 knots. I warned him of the need to pump the brakes to minimize gear resonance during hard braking, and advised him to do his first landing on the widest and longest runway he can find. But he took off the following day with ice and snow on the short 3000' runway, clipped the top of a tree (witnessed by local A&P) most likely because of excessive braking to steer, flew to near fuel exhaustion to around St Louis somewhere, came in on a short and narrow runway too hot, floated to past the middle of the runway, tried to force it to stop instead of going around, went off the end of the runway into a ditch where a log severed the landing gear and the propeller chopped into the log. I know this because the pilot called me at work and asked how to take off the wings.

I have personal insight as to the importance of listening to experience.

I not only take no offense to your suggestion, I appreciate your concern.

James

[Av8r3400]

James,

First off, do you have a Kitfox now or how much time do you have in one? Or are you in the investigation to buy phase of things?

Second, before delving headlong into fixing a non-problem with an untried, non-solution, fly and get to know the airplane as it was designed. Kitfoxes work and perform very, very well as designed. This current airfoil has been in use on the Kitfoxes for over 25 years and has earned a very good reputation.

Adding 20 mph to your airspeed before climbing out of ground effect is ludicrous. This is not a VariEz. It is a very light and very forgiving airplane that will do just what you tell it to do. If you are flying in conditions of 20+ mph gusts, you need to pick another day to go flying.

Basing your course of action on accident records of questionable people doing questionable things with an aircraft and the trying to design out their mistakes, imo, will only lead to frustration if not outright trouble.

[Rooster]

James,

First off, do you have a Kitfox now or how much time do you have in one? Or are you in the investigation to buy phase of things?

Second, before delving headlong into fixing a non-problem with an untried, non-solution, fly and get to know the airplane as it was designed. Kitfoxes work and perform very, very well as designed. This current airfoil has been in use on the Kitfoxes for over 25 years and has earned a very good reputation.

Adding 20 mph to your airspeed before climbing out of ground effect is ludicrous. This is not a VariEz. It is a very light and very forgiving airplane that will do just what you tell it to do. If you are flying in conditions of 20+ mph gusts, you need to pick another day to go flying.

Basing your course of action on accident records of questionable people doing questionable things with an aircraft and the trying to design out their mistakes, imo, will only lead to frustration if not outright trouble.

WOW!
These are wise words!
One cannot do better than listen to sage advice and then add hours flown, when dealing with a really classy piece of equipment.

There is no doubt about the equipment and its capabilities in this case.

Kind regards
Reid

[jtpitkin06]

The FAA has long had a list of hot items related to accidents. At the top of the list for several years is loss of control. Instructors, check airmen and designated examiners are encouraged to address the problem during instruction and check rides.

The good news is that we are getting better in the experimental community. Loss of control accidents have decreased significantly.

Although slow speed low altitude loss of control is the leading cause of accidents in the Kitfox, it does not mean the aircraft is prone to stall and spin more than other aircraft. The number of accidents per hour flown is actually lower than many other aircraft to include both experimental and certified aircraft.

For those not familiar with the flight characteristics of the Kitfox, do not be alarmed.
In simple terms, the Kitfox is one of the safest aircraft you can fly.

John P
Greenville Tx