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Thread: Wheeler or 3 point?

  1. #1

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    Default Wheeler or 3 point?

    Hi Guys
    I would like to hear from the tail-wheel pilots, what is your landing method of choice.
    Please discuss flap, power and approach speed.
    Mogas

  2. #2
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    I do either one. If it's pretty narly I go with a 3 point most the time. That way I can full stall it and flop it on the runway, generally with a bunch of rudder dancing as well. Than again, if I have trouble with floating, I go wheels. If I want to just play around and show off... I do weelies, generally left wheel than both than right wheel than both and than another left wheel, all within one touch and go. I touch down with a wheels landing at 60mph, no flaps. I do a 3 point at 50 over the numbers, again no flaps. Do I have flaps, let me think, ya, but I don't use them.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    Thanks for the reply Allbee, but why no flaps?

  4. #4
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default

    I just don't like them. Plays with the airleron control. Plus one less thing to fool with the better. I'm probably going to try and not use flaps when I get the RV7 going as well. Like I said, one more thing to fool with.

    Oh, one more thing to remember. The flaps will cause the airplane to drop on the nose. The flair will be much more difficult. So without flaps, the flair is nice with little pressure on the elevator. Land without flaps and land with flaps, you will find out what I'm talking about.

    Now, this is one thing to remember as far as landing. If you have a tail wind when landing, yes this does happen and I've done it with over 10mph. Don't land wheels, you could get a surprise, like the tail comming up when you dump the power to lower the tail. I always land 3 point, and another thing to remember, the last few feet will drop out on you, so have or already have, a little power in for the flair. If you don't it will suddenly drop out on you.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  5. #5
    Senior Member SkyPirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    practice practice practice..start with wheel landings then progress to 3 point,..if you have to ,..play with your tire pressure a little to get a little more or a little less give ,..
    Personally I prefer my tires inflated to the required rate the tire calls for plus a lb or 2,..this gives you alot better ground control,..less tire side roll,..less chance of a ground loop,...
    ..do it without any cross wind,..zero wind is best. make your approach the same as you would with tricyle gear ..let the mains touch down ..drop your power gradually until your tail sets..don't rely on the rudder alone ..you have toe brakes,.use them ,..feather them as little to keep your nose straight if you need to,..just remember to keep the stick
    in your lap once all three points are on the ground.
    and practice practice practice

    Chase

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    I don't use flaps either and I don't like the effect of flap setting on aileron control at all but I am new to Kitfox. I have flown a Citabria for the last 25 years which has no flaps, I'm spoiled.

    When I began in the Kitfox 3 last year I had no instruction and did not realize consequences of the lack of inertia. I came in and flared as I did in the Citabria and as previously mentioned, "the bottom falls out" 5 ft above the runway in my case with a wonderful consistent bounce and rotation to the left resulting in power and a go around. I was thankful for the aluminum gear we had installed

    The first time I flew the plane I did this 6 times in a row for a first landing attempt at a practice field and became thankful I had 23 gal of fuel and the rest of the day to get it down....I was also thankful no one was watching.I did a wheel landing to finally get it down.

    Ed Down's fine little manual the "Kitfox Pilots Guide" was not available at the time and would have been a great help. Debra has them. May I recommend it to you As Downs suggests, flying a Kitfox often requires your full attention. I feel it is absolutely necessary to be skilled in both wheel and 3 point

  7. #7
    Senior Member SkyPirate's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    don't feel bad I've seen people do the porpoise act with tricycle gear too,..what some people do not consider is the kitfox is a lighter aircraft,..you must fly it to the ground until you learn it's characteristics,..then you can test its boundaries and yours (more so on the yours) gradually you will be able to 3 point it and roll to a stop and make it look easy
    I built 3 Team aircraft,..all tail wheelers,..with hard plastic tail wheel and no suspension,..they have a tendency to float on the flair,.. the big ole hershey bar wings were the culprit for that,..the plane empty weighed in around 300 lbs depending on it's luxuries or lack of ,..ie radio ..extra fuel tanks etc,..
    For flaps on the kitfox..on really hot days I would give a touch of flaps if I had a passenger,..other then that I rarely used them,..I was flying the model 2 though and that has a high lift wing,.I haven't flown a model 3 or 4 yet ,..hopefully in 3 weeks I'll get some model 4 time throthing at the bit here just to get back in the air

    Chase

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    I prefer no flaps, slips, and three point landings. If I know I'm
    going to wheel land it, then I use 1 notch of flaperons, or at
    night I always use 1 notch of flaperons to keep the nose down
    so I can see the runway with my landing lights.

    That said I do wheel landings with and without flaperons, and I
    do three point landings with and without as well. It all depends
    on what feels right.

    The Ed Downs book, in my opinion does not apply to my plane
    with my IO-240B as my plane does not fly like he describes a
    Kitfox in that book.

    Regards,
    Jeff

  9. #9
    kitfox812's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    I started out with one knotch of flaps in my KF7 and it worked ok with a flat wheelee but the nose was heavier and I had to mess with the trim more. With two knotches, the nose is really heavy even with full trim and not comfortable. I also use 60 mph on final because the sink rate is much more controllable. I also notice that when you pull the power on the KF, it slows down much faster than my 182 did. The mass/weight is so much less. What I have read here is really helpful even though I have 360 hours on my KF and close to 900 landings, I am still learning. I tend to use the no-flap landing more often for the same reasons as above. BTW there is a Fly-in Breakfast at Boundary Country airport (65S) on 30 May. I would love to see some of the experts show off their landing skills.

    Rich
    Last edited by kitfox812; 05-13-2009 at 07:23 AM. Reason: add stuff

  10. #10

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    Default Re: Wheeler or 3 point?

    Thank you all for the responses.
    I also have quite a few hours logged, land equally comfortably with wheelers or 3 point.
    Having said that, the one I find myself doing the most is as follows:
    About 10 degrees of flap.
    Power off glide approach, 60mph.
    Over the fence at 50mph.
    Flare and settle in almost but not quite a 3 point attitude.
    As soon as the mains touch I simultaneously roll it up onto the mains and dump the flap, continue to fly the tail till it settles.
    Roll out with moderate braking once the tail has landed.
    Total landing roll is about 100m with this technique and I find it safe in moderate crosswinds.
    The reason I started this thread is because I want to perfect my short field technique and try a nose high power on approach but wanted to hear what the experts have to say.
    My plane stalls at 35 mph power off and 10 degrees of flap. Did I say stall actually it just nods its nose and descends at about 500 fpm.
    The same unaccelerated stall with some power on has the nose much higher, a definite buffet and break with some roll, airspeed unknown as it does not register on the ASI.
    My plane is South African produced copy of the Kitfox 4, weighs 650lbs empty, 912s powered with a VP.
    Here is a link to my youtube vids:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Mogasmovies

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