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Thread: New poster with a couple questions

  1. #1
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    Default New poster with a couple questions

    Hello everyone!! New poster and just wanted to say hello and ask a couple of questions.
    I recently looked at a Model IV that is for sale. It looks a little rough (understatement) but the price reflective. The plane has a 912 (80 hp) and less than 20 hrs. The fabric and paint look absolutely terrible and probably should be recovered. What would a guy expect to spend on recovering a Model IV? It has what looks like Grove spring gear and 8.00 tires. The seller stated the plane was flown last year by the guy that did the condition inspection and then put in a trailer as the owner moved out of the country and has no desire to fly any longer.
    I have already own a Champ and a 172 but am interested in this to eventually fly under LSA.
    The asking price is $15K which I feel is a little high considering I think the plane needs to be thouroghly gone threw or possibly even totally rebuilt.
    Is this a fair price?
    Also, are there any members on here in north central MN that I could possibly "pick their brain" with questions or possible flight to make sure I would even like the Kitfox.
    Thanks,
    WW

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    In the last two years, I've recovered my Avid MK IV and covered my Kitfox 4 unfinished kit. If you use polyfibre system, I think you can get the materials to recover the plane for about $2000 or a bit more. I look at Barnstormers every day, mostly for the fun of it and have seen 912 Kitfox 4s for sale for about $25000 or so. Your name seems kind of familiar, are you in the Grand Rapids area? I'm over in Chisholm.
    there is a guy near Cloquet that has a Kitfox 4 with 912, you might be able to get a ride with him. If you feel like talking, you can PM me or email me off list, and I'll call you. Take care, Jim Chuk

    PS, if you shy away from the plane, I wouldn't mind knowing where it is.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Jim,
    Yes, I am on quite a few different aviation related sites. I am near Itasca State Park south of Bemidji. You may be thinking of a friend of mine that is in Grand Rapids, he flies a Scout.
    I have a strip at my place and if you are over this way stop in.
    As for this Kitfox, I am actually second in line behind another gentleman. I don't think he wants to deal with a near total rebuild as that is what I fell the plane needs. The original builder looks like he put it together in a hurry and the workmanship looks a little "shody" to say the least. I am thinking the engine and parts are worth roughly what he is asking for it. The owner states that it has flown but personally I doubt I would fly it in the condition it is in. Heck, the part numbered stickers are still on lots of parts!!! Frame tubing looks like it may have bad rust in several areas and the windshield is glazed/internal cracks. Lots of things needing replacement/redone.
    On a side note....my wife is telling me to buy it so if I can make a deal with the guy it will probably be sitting in my hanger shortly.
    WW

  4. #4
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Asking what an aircraft is worth without a detailed inspection is difficult at best. I figure an aircraft is never worth less than its salvage value. So let’s just see what it should sell for if we parted it out...


    See revised posting on 6/3/2011

    John Pitkin
    Greenville, TX
    Last edited by jtpitkin06; 06-03-2011 at 08:54 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    John,
    That is very close to the figure I told my wife it would be worth for salvage. I told her I could expect around $25,000 or I could recover it and keep it or sell it for more.
    I really would like to ride in one and see if I would want to keep it. I already have the Champ and usually fly it on floats in the summer but finding a place to keep it close to home has been an issue even though MN is loaded with lakes. My idea is to rebuild the Kitfox and try to find a set of amphibs so I can keep it at home.
    Bauman has (had) amphibs that were supposed to be getting certified for the Champ but the price was getting close to $30K!!!!
    If I end up with this Kitfox I will probably sell the Champ and the 172.
    WW

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Okay guys an update on this particular Kitfox. I was able to get a 'better" look at the plane after the guy took it out of the trailer it has been stored in. He tore the fabric pretty good on both leading edges getting the plane out. But then I figured the plane was going to need a recover anyways so that was just another bargaining point. Both flapperons have dents in their leading edges also. Probably not to hard to fix but just another issue to deal with. After giving it a good going over and hearing it run I am trying to find more history on the plane.

    All the "paperwork" he had was the assembly amnual, several old advertisement flyers, and catalogs. There was an Air worthiness certificate and POH. I could find NO engine or airframe logs. The owner said this is all the paperwork he has. Aren't airframe and engine log books required for experimentals? The plane looks like it has a LOT more than 17 hrs. TT. There were broken choke cable housing that was tie-wrapped for a fix, the wire loom was a disaster! Windshield is glazed and cracked. Floor boards definitely need replacement.

    This plane may have also been damaged since looking inside the fuselage things just don't look right. Are there supposed to be lifting handles and both sides of the tail? There is only a handle on the left side (pilot side) with the opposite side looking like there was a welding repair possibly done to that section of the fuselage. Couple of tubes don't quite look straight along with the thin metal bracket that is on the top-inside of the fuselage that has the antenna mounted on it. Also the wooden stringers are not on the same plane, ie, they are mounted at differing heights, and one of them is broken and has been 'glued' to repair it. Does anyone have any photos of the fuselage that I can compare to? The more I look at it the more I feel this may take more work and money than it is worth.

    Sorry for the long post but I don't want to buy this and find out it will cast more to repair than it may be worth in the long term.

    Thanks,
    WW

  7. #7
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    I would seriously concider the speedster that just came out for sale.

  8. #8

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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Without logs, any salvage value it may have will plummet. Not sure about previous models, but the SS only has a handle on the left side. Any wooden pieces are installed by the builder, and crooked/broken ones may indicate damage, or a builder's inattention to detail. Finally, check out the forum's photo album area to find some shots of the specific area of the frame for the model you need. Many people in the forums have pictures up, or websites linked, which may provide you with invaluable info you might find very useful in familiarizing yourself with the Kitfox.
    http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=118
    If you don't find what you are looking for there, post which area of the frame you would like to see specifically, and I'll see if I can find a corresponding shot, from a SS though.

  9. #9
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Now that you have more information, I can revise my salvage estimate downward. Overall, your second assessment indicates the aircraft is in worse shape than originally thought.

    Without logs, the engine time is unverifiable. The rest of the aircraft condition indicates it has been used and abused. I would suspect the engine too. I now put the value of the engine at core, or about $4000.

    At this point we have to adjust the salvage value of parts based on total aircraft condition. The overall assembly and wiring doesn’t sound like it was done with care so we have to assume the wings were assembled with the same lack of skill. That being the case I put the salvage value of the wings at zero. The dented flaperons may prove harder to repair than you think. I now put them at $100 for the pair.

    Where the previous estimate assumed an undamaged fuselage, it appears that is not the case. I now put the salvage value of the fuselage at $1000

    Because the wiring is rather shabby, the radios are suspect. Unless tested prior to purchase I put the value at zero.

    Based on your latest post and condition I put the salvage value at:

    Rotax 80HP with unknown hours – core value -- $4000
    Firewall forward kit with motor mount, exhaust, cowling $100
    Prop and spinner $200
    Possibly damaged fuselage and empennage $1000
    Wings – damaged - construction quality unknown -- $0
    Flaperons Damaged -- $100
    Grove landing gear with wheels, tires and brakes $500
    Instruments - Used unknown condition $50
    Radio - Unknown condition - $0
    Transponder with encoder – unknown condition. $0

    That puts the value at $5950.

    If this is an aircraft you intend to put back in service, it will cost at lot and take much time. You have to consider you must take stuff out and make repairs before you can install new things. It’s way more work than starting from scratch.

    Consider like aircraft and what they are selling for. A hanger mate just bought a Luscombe in very good shape with a fresh annual for $15K. Nice Kitfoxes come up for sale quite often. There’s no need to buy a tired dog. This one sounds like it is worth more dead than alive.

    John
    Last edited by jtpitkin06; 06-03-2011 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New poster with a couple questions

    Thanks again guys. After looking at all the pictures I think what the builder did was to glue on of the stringers above and one below the attach points instead of on them as I see in the pics.
    I took several pictures of the shody workmanship and will send them to someone if they are interested in giving me a better analysis of the plane. I am not computer savy enough to post them on here. I will have to say this is some of the crappiest looking building I have ever seen on an airplane!! Seriously looks like the guy bought the kit and tried to see how fast and sloppy he could get it in the air. I am surprised the FAA guy even gave him an AW certificate unless it looked much better beforehand.
    WW

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