Kitfox IV Speedster & learning to fly

[kl2657]

How difficult is it to learn to fly in a Kitfox IV Speedster? I've found a good deal on one and budget wise it fits the bill. My only concern is that with the shorter wings, it may be too high performance for a new pilot.

My plan would be to purchase the plane and then hire a CFI to train me in the plane. Your input is greatly appreciated.

Also, is the Speedster still STOL capable?

Thanks,

Jason

[Av8r3400]

A Speedster is still a very capable super-STOL plane if it was built light.

Learning to fly in it may be another story. (I'm assuming you have zero flight experience at this time.) These planes are not dangerous or difficult to fly, but you may be challenged to find a CFI that has the skill and experience needed to safely train you in a plane like this.

They are very short coupled and have a high power to weight ratio, making them potentially quite a handful in the takeoff roll and the landing roll out.

I've known of experienced tail-dragger pilots ground looping these little birds because they underestimated them (or over estimated their skill ).

[DesertFox6]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Kitfox, kl2657!

Either you're blessed with an incredibly good sense of judgment or your best set of airshow sneakers had a major, lace-threatening, blowout right in front of the Kitfox Kiosk at a major air show...and the rest of us can just imagine how THAT worked out!

Av8r3400 highlights a couple of concerns I share about taking INITIAL flight training in a Model IV Speedster. I've been flying mine for over 11 years now without having the compass go unexpectedly 180 degrees crazy on me, but that's not necessarily going to be the case with a novice aviator and that's where I gather you stand. (But you're in for an awful lot of fun! )

That said, I'm thinking you may have a hard time finding a CFI that's actually QUALIFIED to teach you in a Speedster, or any Kitfox; just another ASEL/CFI isn't where you want to venture your money or your life. If indeed we're talking flight instruction from the very start, you'll need a good ground school and an aircraft you can have somebody else fix for you while you learn. Please trust me on this; I've been flight-instructing in one thing or another for more years than I care to admit and we all want you to enjoy flying with us for many years to come.

I have no such concerns about taking such initial instruction (we should all have been so lucky!) in the latest models, like the Series 5 and later kits, and/or the Super Sport S-LSA. In fact, such from-the-ground-up training is available in a factory-built plane; check out GlassCockpitAviation.com (I can't seem to make that into link for you right now) and talk with CFI Paul Leadabrand. I think EVERYONE should be so fortunate as to learn stick and rudder skills in gliders and then move right into taildraggers...right after winning a major lottery.

Now, if no bonafide Kitfox CFIs pop up in this forum from the Jersey area to help you, I would recommend you investigate learning to fly in a taildragger, right there in New Jersey, at www.andoverflight.com. You can get a head-start by studying a video by one of their more prominent CFIs, Damian DelGaizo; his "Tailwheel 101" DVD is available through him at bushflying@earthlink.net, or through the Andover Flight Academy at the previously mentioned address. It's truly excellent.

Let us know what you decide. And please don't think we're trying to turn you off to flying a Kitfox Speedster; my wife is a Civil Air Patrol 182 pilot who's been flying with me all along and is currently getting her tailwheel endorsement from a local Super-Cub outfit instead of from her instructor-hubby. I want her to learn the tailwheel basics in that lumber-truck before I teach her how to handle the hot-rod!

That, and I'm pretty sure I'd be endangering a perfectly nice 40+ year marriage if I did otherwise!

Can anybody else more "Joy-zee-local" out there give Jason some help?

"E.T."

[kl2657]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Kitfox, kl2657!

Either you're blessed with an incredibly good sense of judgment or your best set of airshow sneakers had a major, lace-threatening, blowout right in front of the Kitfox Kiosk at a major air show...and the rest of us can just imagine how THAT worked out!

Av8r3400 highlights a couple of concerns I share about taking INITIAL flight training in a Model IV Speedster. I've been flying mine for over 11 years now without having the compass go unexpectedly 180 degrees crazy on me, but that's not necessarily going to be the case with a novice aviator and that's where I gather you stand. (But you're in for an awful lot of fun! )

That said, I'm thinking you may have a hard time finding a CFI that's actually QUALIFIED to teach you in a Speedster, or any Kitfox; just another ASEL/CFI isn't where you want to venture your money or your life. If indeed we're talking flight instruction from the very start, you'll need a good ground school and an aircraft you can have somebody else fix for you while you learn. Please trust me on this; I've been flight-instructing in one thing or another for more years than I care to admit and we all want you to enjoy flying with us for many years to come.

I have no such concerns about taking such initial instruction (we should all have been so lucky!) in the latest models, like the Series 5 and later kits, and/or the Super Sport S-LSA. In fact, such from-the-ground-up training is available in a factory-built plane; check out GlassCockpitAviation.com (I can't seem to make that into link for you right now) and talk with CFI Paul Leadabrand. I think EVERYONE should be so fortunate as to learn stick and rudder skills in gliders and then move right into taildraggers...right after winning a major lottery.

Now, if no bonafide Kitfox CFIs pop up in this forum from the Jersey area to help you, I would recommend you investigate learning to fly in a taildragger, right there in New Jersey, at www.andoverflight.com. You can get a head-start by studying a video by one of their more prominent CFIs, Damian DelGaizo; his "Tailwheel 101" DVD is available through him at bushflying@earthlink.net, or through the Andover Flight Academy at the previously mentioned address. It's truly excellent.

Let us know what you decide. And please don't think we're trying to turn you off to flying a Kitfox Speedster; my wife is a Civil Air Patrol 182 pilot who's been flying with me all along and is currently getting her tailwheel endorsement from a local Super-Cub outfit instead of from her instructor-hubby. I want her to learn the tailwheel basics in that lumber-truck before I teach her how to handle the hot-rod!

That, and I'm pretty sure I'd be endangering a perfectly nice 40+ year marriage if I did otherwise!

Can anybody else more "Joy-zee-local" out there give Jason some help?

"E.T."

Thanks for your input. Prior to stumbling onto the kitfox, I had run across Andover Flight Academy. I've spoken with them several times and they seem very knowledgeable at training tail draggers. They also have a really cool bush pilot course (something I'll think about later)... I'll ask them about prior experience in a Kitfox.

I did find a CFI out in Allentown, PA that has experience in a Kitfox. While it would be a drive to get out to, it's an option as well.

I'm not opposed to traveling out to someplace like AZ to learn to fly a Kitfox either .

Assuming that finding a Qualified CFI doesn't end up being an issue, would you still be concerned that a Speedster might be too much airplane to learn to fly in?

Thanks,

Jason

[Av8r3400]

I would have to echo DesertFox6 in saying it would be better to learn (earn your ticket) in a plane that is more "conventional". A plane that the CFIs you use will also be able teach you comfortably in. Starting in a plane that may require more skill than you (or your CFI) have currently will make success more likely.

Then doing a thorough transition (even up to 15 hours dual) into the Kitfox will be less stressful and more fun.

[wannafly]

I am a low time pilot with about 100 hrs in a cessna 150 before buying my kitfox. I took lessons in a taylorcraft for about 5 hrs. The instructor is a fantastic pilot and showed great skill in what he could do with his aircraft. He then took my kitfox IV Speedster out for about 2 hrs on his own and did lots of testing (landing and takeoffs) and made himself more aware of what a Kitfox is like before we went up and did some dual time. We had close to 5 hours dual before he said I was good to go on my own. I found the experience of the transition good probably because of the good instruction. I did this with subaru power on the nose. When I put the 912s in it was like starting over because of the increase in performance.
But what an amazing experience. best of luck in your training exercise

[akflyer]

I am gonna be the odd ball here (big surprise) and say go for it. The speedster is no more of a handful than many other GA aircraft out there that got a bad rap. Gear set up was a huge issue on the pacer getting a bad name as a handful on the ground. Wide gear took care of that problem, just as wide gear on the KF makes it a much more forgiving airplane.

Getting the CFI up to speed on the aircraft will be the biggest thing, and that is due to the nature of the engine etc. If there is a competent tail wheel instructor in your area, and they cant get comfortable in a speedster by the end of the first flight and a few landings, then you need to boot the low time kid out of the cockpit and go find a crusty old guy that has more time in a tail dragger than the afore mentioned kid has breathing.

There are no huge "gotchas" in flying the KF, other than quirky start-up procedures on a 912, or, in the case of a 2 stroke, knowing how to jet and run the 2 stroke. The plane itself is not anything that a CFI should have any trouble with.

Just my .02, and ya get what ya pay for on the internet

[carlisle]

Agree with AKFlyer. Hard not to sound a little 'old school' here but the fundamental things that Kitfox flying teaches are good lessons in any airplane. Coordinated turns in my M2 for example are like perfect landings...a little hard to come by and very satisfying when accomplished. The turn coord ball sometimes tends to act more like the wet compass in when it comes to keeping it centered.

Having to pay a little more attention to the engine gauges is also a good habit to develop and one that I didn't get into while learning in the 150 some 40 yrs ago. I'm pretty comfortable behind my 582 now after some experience, but wouldn't be if I didn't have the EGT and coolant temp gauges to frequently glance at.

Even without including the 'tail dragger vs nose dragger' argument, I think that anyone learning from the start in a Kitfox would be a better pilot for it and transitioning to a conventional plane would be a lot easier than vice versa.

Chris Carlisle
Model 2, 582, C box
Sioux Falls, SD

[HighWing]

No strong feelings yes or no, but! I learned to fly in a Cessna 170B - not your conventional trainer There was a day when the only thing you could learn in had a taillwheel and aviation survived. My only take on the Speedster are the CFI issues. It may take a bit more time, but I can't see where it won't be doable, and not having to pay rental fees would be a real plus to me.

Lowell

[DesertFox6]

Well it sure looks to me like wannafly taxied into a goldmine with his flight training experience: That's the kind of story we ought to be reading about in AOPA Pilot or one of the EAA magazines: Old-school, flight disciplined, IP! WOW! I'm just tickled pink you had such a wonderful experience with what sounds like one of those rare-as-Rotax-gaskets "crusty old guys" that akflyer endorses and I'll certainly second his recommendation on that score!

So, kl2657, other than slight variations of opinion based on our flying backgrounds with various trainers and Kitfox models, what you should take from this is that we ALL focus on the qualifications of the CFI as our primary concern for your success; certainly where the Kitfox is the mount of the moment, and, as carlisle so clearly opines, "anyone learning from the start in a Kitfox would be a better pilot for it," to which I'll add only "Amen." Just think of the quality of CFIs you'd have to chose from!

It would be great if you could take a demo flight in the machine you're eying and have an experienced Kitfox builder mentor you through the steps of acquiring somebody else's handiwork: This is an art form unto itself, covered in depth under many "else-wheres," so I'll drop it at that.

Make sure you have a great aircraft before you buy and a great instructor before you fly, Jason: Satisfy those two conditions and you'll be landing on some of our TeamKitfox members' home-dromes before you know it...and that includes GEU out here in Desert-Fox-Squadron-Land. I'd be happy to offer some instruction if you're in the area; just try to arrive when the temperature is less than 112 Fahrenheit/45 Celsius as the fully-loaded takeoff rolls sometimes exceed 400 feet!

"E.T."
(Semper Crustier!)