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Thread: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

  1. #11
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    I had an anoying problem with my right tank. I originally thought it was the style of tank on the right side. My problem, the right tank would not empty all the way, there was 5 gal left in the right tank. This was with ball valves installed on each tank to stop flow if I wanted. I was able to empty the left tank with just about nothing left in it. The right tank, different situation. I changed the right tank, it was a vintage 95 tank so I was also concerned with alki fuel. so I went through the trouble of replacing the right tank. I get it installed and here we go again, now I have 3 gal of fuel left and it won't flow into the header tank in flgiht. so now I'm checking and replacing fittings to match the left tank. Still I would get down to the last 3 gal of fuel and it would stop flowing through the lines. I do have the low fuel light, very nice. I called John and we talked, he mentioned that the header tank has been moved to right behind the seat because of fuel starvation, mainly on decents. I didn't think this was my problem. He also mentioned that he doesn't have any ball valves and both tanks empty together and do it fine on his SS. Still determined to find out why I can't empty the right tank like the left I continued to think on it and finally come up with the fact that the only vent for the header goes into the right tank. So I went and flew one more time and got down to 3 left in the right tank and started having troubles with flow at which time I reached up and pinched off the vent line, walla, the flow resumed to the header tank from the right tank, gotcha you sucker. I landed and installed a ball valve in the right tank vent. I than went up for another flight and when the fuel quit this time I closed the valve and yes the fuel resumed, I played with it and found if I closed the valve and opened it just a little I emptied the right tank, cool , an answer to my problem. Buy one draw back, you need the vent to empty the right side. So my answer is to not use this unless I need the extra 3 gal in the right tank. So for now the vent is open, but us it only when getting that last 3 gal out of the right tank.

    Why is this important, I fly around with minimum fuel for performance on my local flights. I want this 3 gal of fuel for safety reasons. Now I have it.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  2. #12
    Senior Member cap01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    so steve , whats happening when your down to 3 gal in the right tank and left tank empty with the vent valve closed your getting vent thru the left empty tank ?
    chuck
    kitfox IV 1050
    912ul warpdrive
    flying B , yelm, wa

  3. #13
    Senior Member dholly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    @Jacob - What was the fuel tank and fuel line configuration? (1) or (2) wing tanks into a small header tank, directly with no vent lines? Vented caps? Fuel line over the door frame I presume? Sorry for the confusion, but I've never seen a small header tank on the firewall (which side?) as you describe. Or are you referring to the gascolator possibly?

    @JP/ALL - I've read the SB and not 'complied'. Why? Because I have a single (right) wing tank and panel tank on my M-III, both with vented caps. The fuel line exits the wing tank to a shut-off in the head rack, across the rear carry through tube, over the pilot side door, down the vertical door post, along horizontal tubing under the dash tank, then into the fuel selector below the dash tank near the dash tank outlet fitting.

    Based on wording in SB#29 (emphasis mine):
    "NOTE: For those operating wing tanks in conjunction with the large, front main tank, the wing tank fuel lines should route: forward from the wing tank, above the door frame work, down the diagonal bracing in the windshield area, and plumbed directly into the filler neck of the main tank. The wing tank fuel valve can be installed in the headrack above the door. Because of the capacity and fuel visibility in the main tank, the question of fuel flow stoppage from the wing tanks is not as critical. With the fuel routed into the filler neck, you will have a constant visual on all fuel."
    This reads somewhat ambiguous to me, ie. when utilizing the panel tank is it applicable to single, or multiple wing tanks only? Regardless, as the SB was originally issued to remedy multiple wing tank usage issues, I question whether it is anything I need worry about. Is head pressure sufficient to keep fuel flowing even if my current routing is not continuously downhill?

    In any event, I have NEVER seen fuel line routed down diagonal bracing into the filler neck. Has anyone done this? The SB recommendation for my fuel configuration seems problematic as it just dumps into the main panel tank. With the wing high, I should think the potential for in-flight overfill spillage exists if one were distracted.

    I dunno, I'm inclined to leave well enough alone...
    Last edited by dholly; 07-20-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    generally when I fly I have 10total gal fuel on board (I have two 13gal tanks)with what ever is in the header tank. this gives me some good performance in the aircraft. I fly around and empty one tank generally, either the left or right and than run on the other tank to the airport. Now I know I can fly for 20 minutes on the header tank at a lower speed setting, this has been tested also. When I fly at full speed I burn 5 gal of gas an hour. so I know when I really run out. I generally emtpy the right tank first, I know what the left one does, I have a red light that blares at me when the fuel flow stops, I love this thing.

    If I read you right, your concerned with a what if. There is really no what if, that's why I have flight tested what the tanks do. I fly my plane a bunch, like over 150hrs this last year and the previous years over 300. I know my plane. I just was uncomfortable about carrying around 3 gal of fuel that I couldn't use.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  5. #15
    Senior Member jtpitkin06's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    Dear Chuck,

    RE: Missile.

    Please note in my profile I retired from American Airlines (which merged with TWA). I have a particularly close association with the pilots and flight attendants of TWA. Read the following list and maybe you’ll understand why I don’t waste my time with conspiracy theories. I have an equally long list from AAL11 and AAL77, most of whom I knew personally.

    To all aviators gone west…

    Capt John Pitkin ret.
    American Airlines
    Check Airman B-757/ B-767
    DFW International division


    From TWA 800

    Campbell, Richard G., 63, TWA Flight 800 flight engineer, of Ridgefield, Connecticut
    Carven, Paula, off-duty TWA flight attendant, of Bel Air, Maryland
    Charbonnier, Jacques, 66, TWA flight 800 crew, of Huntington Station, New York
    Charbonnier, Constance, 49, TWA flight 800 crew, of Huntington Station, New York
    Christopher, Janet, 48, TWA flight 800 crew, of Stamford Heights, Pennsylvania
    DiLuccio, Debra Collins, 47, TWA flight 800 crew, of Agropoli, Italy
    Dodge, Warren, 50, off-duty TWA employee, of Brentwood, New Hampshire
    Edwards, Daryl, 41, off-duty TWA service supervisor, Jersey City, New Jersey
    Eshleman, Dougas A., 35, off-duty TWA flight engineer, of Aurora, Colorado
    Gough, Capt. Donald, off-duty TWA pilot, of Mill Valley, California (married to Ana Leim)
    Griffith, Joanne, 39, off-duty TWA employee, of Brooklyn, New York
    Harkness, Eric, 23, off-duty TWA employee
    Hull, James, 48, off-duty TWA employee, of Southampton, Pennsylvania
    Ingenhuett, Lonnie, 43, off-duty TWA employee, of Scottsdale, Arizona
    Johnsen, Arlene E., 60, TWA Flight 800 flight attendant, of Grand Junction, Colorado
    Kevorkian, Capt. Ralph G., 58, TWA Flight 800 pilot, of Garden Grove, California
    Krick, Oliver, 25, TWA Flight 800 flight engineer, of St. Louis
    Kwan, Barbara, 40, off-duty TWA employee, of Scottsdale, Arizona, mother of Alec, 7
    Lang, Ray, 51, TWA flight 800 crew, of North Massapequa, New York
    Leim, Ana, off-duty TWA flight attendant, of Mill Valley, California
    Lockhart, Maureen, 49, TWA flight 800 crew, of Merriam, Kansas
    Loffredo, Elaine, 50, off-duty TWA employee, of Glastonbury, Connecticut
    Luevano, Elias, 42, off-duty TWA employee, of Albuquerque, New Mexico
    McPherson, Pamela, 45, off-duty TWA employee, of Atlanta, Georgia
    Meade, Sandra, 42, TWA Flight 800 crew, of Camano Island, Washington
    Melotin, Grace, 48, TWA Flight 800 crew, of Corona, New York
    Miller, Gideon, 57, off-duty TWA pilot, of Sarasota, Florida
    Rhoads, Marit E., 48, TWA Flight 800 Crew, Bellevue, Washington
    Rhoads, Scott, 48, Bellevue, Washington (married to Marit Rhoads)
    Schuldt, Mike, 51, TWA Flight 800 Crew, Safety Harbor, Florida
    Simmons, Olivia, 50, off-duty TWA employee, Orange, New Jersey
    Snyder, Capt. Steven, 57, TWA Flight 800 pilot, Stratford, Connecticut
    Torche, Melinda, 47, TWA Flight 800 crew, Irvine, California
    Verhaeghe, Rick L., off-duty TWA flight officer, 48, Goldsboro, North Carolina
    Warren, Lani, 48, off-duty TWA flight service manager, Sherman Oaks, California
    Ziemkiewicz, Jill, 24, TWA Flight 800 crew, of Rutherford, New Jersey

  6. #16
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    as noted I don't close the vent all the way off, I close the valve and open it slightly and than the tank empty's itself all the way.

  7. #17
    Senior Member cap01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    capt john , i have also spent a career associating with crews and do understand to losses , although not as closely as you . i certainly didnt mean to bring up a tender subject as i dont pay attention to conspiracy theories .
    chuck
    kitfox IV 1050
    912ul warpdrive
    flying B , yelm, wa

  8. #18
    Senior Member dholly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Model 2 Header tank, re: SB 29

    Still curious, has anyone routed fuel line from a wing tank down diagonal bracing in the windshield area directly into the panel tank filler neck per SB#29?
    -Aeropro CZ Aerotrek A240 Tri-Gear SLSA 912uls
    -Airdale Avid+ on CZAW Amphibs 'FatAvid Floater' (building)
    -Kitfox 4-1200 TD 912ul (sold)
    -Kitfox Model III TD 582 (R.I.P.)
    -Avid Flyer Mk-IV TD (sold)

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