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Thread: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

  1. #11

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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Quote Originally Posted by jonbakerok View Post

    No need for theory, though. We've got proof. Several Kitfoxes are flying with that beautiful Rotec on the front. None of them are as fast as a 100 hp Rotax. Speed is not why you put a radial on a Kitfox.
    Not sure about that. Here are the actual accounts of one Radial powered Kitfox owner. I’d be surprised if any Rotax (even at 6,000rpm) could match these numbers. No cowl fitted NACA or otherwise!

    Due to landing gear length, I know some Rotec/Kitfox owners have compromised performance by running smaller props on there Rotec which is designed to run larger props via its superior torque. 76" diameter is the optimum.

    Kitfox Classic IV: Brian Henneman
    Engine R2800 MkI
    Prop: 76"D x 50"P then to 76”D x 55”P.
    Burn: 6 gal/hr
    Max RPM: 3600 (via 3:2 gear box)
    Cruise RPM: 3000 = 2000 at prop.

    Comment (26th June 2002): I did a static thrust test this past weekend and it will pull 480 lbs. Very impressive. More later.
    Comment (11th June 2002): Just wanted to let you know I received my new prop a 76"dia. X 55" pitch and the performance really increased. The climb is still about 1500'/min. and the top speed is 130 mph. I can still exceed the red line up to about 3700 rpm. I have been cruising it at 3400 rpm and I am indication 110 -115 mph. I could use about another 5" of pitch to have a really good cruise prop but I will keep this one for demos.
    Comment (28th April 2002 “I got in a couple of hour flying this weekend so far and I took Steve up in it with me. With the prop I have on it, it is really a climbing machine. I can peg the VSI at 2000' / min. and that is really going up for a little airplane”
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    Last edited by paulc; 01-15-2009 at 06:00 PM.

  2. #12
    Joe Meyeres's Avatar
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    Wink Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    This is in response to John Baker on his comment of the Rotec 2800 vs Rotax 912. I have a Classic IV with the Rotec on the nose swinging a wooden 70" Climb Pitched Sterba Prop. At full power straight and level I am seeing 127 MPH, 75% power is 105 to 110 MPH and 65% yeilds around 90 to 95 MPH. I don't know what the Rotax will give you, but if you are looking for speed out of an airplane, the Kitfox is not the greatest choice. It's got alot of drag and the tube and fabric construction some would consider not as durable. However, I would not give up the aesthetic value achieved by putting the Rotec on the nose. It is "robust" and you can not match the sound it delivers. As for the speed... it's a Kitfox, but it sure not the slowest one to the party! I get alot of comments that it looks somewhat like a Beaver or Monocoupe. In my way of thinking, that's not bad company to be in!!! Pictures and videos are available on the Rotec Website at www.rotecradialengines.com

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Those sound like pretty darn good numbers to me. Add some wheel spats and I reckon you could add another 5mph, what would that make it, 132mph?

    BTW Here's a short movie of Joe's plane in action! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYHdIZuv-K4
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    Last edited by paulc; 01-19-2009 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #14
    Joe Meyeres's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Paul,

    I elected to go with the bigger tires to provide more prop tip clearance, but yes, if you did add wheel pants and clip the wings it would make this airplane into a true Speedster model. (All the other Speedster mods have been done on this airplane.) Those two items could concievable add another 5, 10 maybe even to 15 MPH. And remember this airplane has a climb pitched prop!
    The reason I chose the Kitfox is because it had "good" top end, "great" shortfield performance and "great" slow flight characteristics. The Rotec Radial adds so much more to the aesthetics of the airplane. No such thing as a quick turn at the pump though. It always gets crowded before I leave!

  5. #15
    Super Moderator Av8r3400's Avatar
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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Joe, that is an absolutely beautiful bird, no doubt.

    Is there a heat muff on the exhaust somewhere for cabin heat? I'd love a Rotec, but I need cabin heat in Wisconsin.

  6. #16
    Joe Meyeres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    AV8R,

    Thanks for the nice comment. No carb heat or cabin heat at the moment. That is something I am working on. If you look at the Rotec website there is a fella named Simon Mears who fabricated a very efficient heat muff system for his Rotec. In fact I was just e:mailing him. I hate to go to the collector ring for heat, but it has been a cold winter here in Kansas! It has me thinking, "heat dummy!" Actually my biggest concern is carb ice... it should not be a problem with the location of my air filter, but don't want to risk the chance. Heat in the cabin would be a bonus and provide more flying days.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Meyeres View Post
    This is in response to John Baker on his comment of the Rotec 2800 vs Rotax 912. I have a Classic IV with the Rotec on the nose swinging a wooden 70" Climb Pitched Sterba Prop. At full power straight and level I am seeing 127 MPH, 75% power is 105 to 110 MPH and 65% yeilds around 90 to 95 MPH. I don't know what the Rotax will give you, but if you are looking for speed out of an airplane, the Kitfox is not the greatest choice. It's got alot of drag and the tube and fabric construction some would consider not as durable. However, I would not give up the aesthetic value achieved by putting the Rotec on the nose. It is "robust" and you can not match the sound it delivers. As for the speed... it's a Kitfox, but it sure not the slowest one to the party! I get alot of comments that it looks somewhat like a Beaver or Monocoupe. In my way of thinking, that's not bad company to be in!!! Pictures and videos are available on the Rotec Website at www.rotecradialengines.com
    Hey, didn't say I PREFERRED a Rotax. Heck, I'm using Jabiru in my project. I just have a hard time understanding how a much heavier engine, with larger frontal area, and about the same horsepower can be faster. My theory can't stand up to your facts, though. Must be the prop.

    I'm with you, anyway. If I could afford one, I'd take the aethetics over a few knots any day, even if it was slower.

    Make me wonder what it could do with a good cowl. If you could just figure out how to make one out of plexiglass!

  8. #18
    Senior Member Slyfox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Hay, lets not be cutting down the Rotax. I just put on a 912s and that thing is unbelievable. I myself do not care about looks. It's the performance. I also know that when you have a heavy plane you will loose in handling. My plane handles like no other in my opinion. The empty weight is 650. I can't even emagine an extra 100 pounds. That would mean I would have a one seater airplane. What I mean there is me the wife and 30 pounds of cargo and full fuel, I'm at gross 1200lbs. You guys talk about a 2000vis well I get that with my airplane with the 912s. Plus I can throw my airplane around at low altitudes and have a bunch of fun.

    Yes your airplane looks cool. It is a show plane. I rather fly. Sorry, just my opinion. please don't take offense.
    steve
    slyfox
    model IV 1200-flying
    912uls
    IVO medium in-flight
    RV7A-flying
    IO-360
    constant speed prop

  9. #19
    Joe Meyeres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Quote Originally Posted by allbee View Post
    Hay, lets not be cutting down the Rotax. I just put on a 912s and that thing is unbelievable. I myself do not care about looks. It's the performance. I also know that when you have a heavy plane you will loose in handling. My plane handles like no other in my opinion. The empty weight is 650. I can't even emagine an extra 100 pounds. That would mean I would have a one seater airplane. What I mean there is me the wife and 30 pounds of cargo and full fuel, I'm at gross 1200lbs. You guys talk about a 2000vis well I get that with my airplane with the 912s. Plus I can throw my airplane around at low altitudes and have a bunch of fun.

    Yes your airplane looks cool. It is a show plane. I rather fly. Sorry, just my opinion. please don't take offense.


    Steve,
    No offense taken by any means... yes my airplane is heavier. But I really like the looks of the radial. You can't imagine the amount of attention it draws, especially with the older crowd who learned behind a radial. Still, heavy or not it does pretty well on shortfield, climb and top end and the engine is fairly simple to maintain.
    Joe

  10. #20
    Joe Meyeres's Avatar
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    Default Re: Verner radial vs. Rotec radial

    Quote Originally Posted by jonbakerok View Post
    Hey, didn't say I PREFERRED a Rotax. Heck, I'm using Jabiru in my project. I just have a hard time understanding how a much heavier engine, with larger frontal area, and about the same horsepower can be faster. My theory can't stand up to your facts, though. Must be the prop.

    I'm with you, anyway. If I could afford one, I'd take the aethetics over a few knots any day, even if it was slower.

    Make me wonder what it could do with a good cowl. If you could just figure out how to make one out of plexiglass!

    Jon,
    I like your idea about a plexiglass cowl!!! And I am not knocking Rotax... don't get me wrong. I just really like the looks of the radial and don't feel performance is suffering that much. There are some folks in the area that are leaning on me to put a ring cowl, or speed cowl on this installation. I could probably pick up a few knots by doing that, but I think it would take away from the asthetics of the overall project.
    Joe

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