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Thread: Takeoff Procedure

  1. #1

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    Default Takeoff Procedure

    Can I get some advice on takeoff procedures? I have recently purchased a Kitfox 3 and I'm having issues with my takeoffs. I am not using any flaps and when it wants to start flying it gets really squirrely as if it's flying to early. Should I hold the stick forward for a few seconds to hold the mains down for a little longer to get more airspeed when it's trying to fly? I'm just learning how to fly this thing so any advice would be greatly appreciated. I have the Rotax 912 UL.

  2. #2
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    I have a SS7 so I don't know if it translates exactly. Deploying flaps really pushes the nose over on mine. If I use one notch of flaps and get the trim correct (it changes based on my load) I can lift the tail, roll it down the runway until I am well above stall and then rotate. If I do a no flap takeoff I really need to get assertive with the push forward on the stick to keep it on the ground. I believe I know the feeling you describe, especially if I have a crosswind. Just curious, why are you not using flaps?
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    Great point, I will definitely try my one notch of flaps. Should I put them in before I start my takeoff roll or pop them in as I am rotating? I haven't used them yet because the previous owner did not use them. I am just trying to get familiar with with is and I'm struggling on my takeoffs. My instructor did as well. It was trying to fly but wasn't ready and we started crabbing on a few of them before we were completely off the ground.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Delta Whisky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    Like Eddie, mines a SS7 so the comparison might not be exact. I put in one notch of flaps before starting the take off roll and lift the tail to keep the tires in firm contact until it is time to go flying. And, with power and in ground effect, it wants to fly long before stall speed and therein lies the issue.

  5. #5
    Senior Member PapuaPilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    I'm guessing the model 3 doesn't handle exactly the same as the newer series Kitfox models, so our advice may not be accurate. It would be best to get input from others who have flown a model 3. From what I hear flaps are used more for elevator trim than flaps on the early Kitfox models.

    Squirrelly could happen for a lot of reasons such as an aft CG, over controlling, ineffective/under sized controls, sticky brakes, etc. If the plane isn't ready to fly you can either push forward to raise the tail and let it pick up a little more speed or just hold the elevator in the neutral position and let it fly off in the 3 point attitude when it is ready.

    Personally I would not recommend doing flap pop offs as a standard procedure. It adds another element to the takeoff when you are already very busy. I only used the pop-off one time in daily operations when I flew float planes; and that was when there was an entire 40' tree floating in the river just before the point I would be lifting off. It would have been worse to chop the power and abort so I added flaps and rolled it onto one float. Thankfully only one float grazed the tree and no damage happened to the float.
    Phil Nelson
    A&P-IA, Maintenance Instructor
    KF 5 Outback, Cont. IO-240
    Flying since 2016

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    I flew a KF3 but it had a 582. It was very light.

    Mine was stable on take off but I did over rotate a couple of times. I pushed the stick forward quickly to level out; it didn't feel like it would recover on its own.

    The only time it took off badly I hit something under the grass and it bounced me up nose hight before I was ready. Again I pushed the stick forward to level out.

    Mine had a very soft stall. I tried the falling leaf. With the stick held hard back it would just descend, not really brake. I never did an un-cordinated stall for fear of spinning it.

    Flaps would get it off the ground faster and it would climb steeper. Had to nose over a bit as I pulled flaps off.

    For sure I didn't have to hold it on the ground.

    You might check your balance and rigging of the wings.
    Building a KF IV Classic

  7. #7
    Agfoxflyer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    I rarely use flaps on take off. (Kitfox 5). Hold stick neutral until lift off then push stick forward to remain in ground effect until speed increases.
    David E.
    Woodstock, Georgia
    N97DE S5 TD Flying

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  8. #8

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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    Quote Originally Posted by efwd View Post
    I have a SS7 so I don't know if it translates exactly. Deploying flaps really pushes the nose over on mine. If I use one notch of flaps and get the trim correct (it changes based on my load) I can lift the tail, roll it down the runway until I am well above stall and then rotate. If I do a no flap takeoff I really need to get assertive with the push forward on the stick to keep it on the ground. I believe I know the feeling you describe, especially if I have a crosswind. Just curious, why are you not using flaps?


    Flaps were the key. I used my one notch of flaps on my takeoff and not problems at all. Stick forward after applying full power and and it popped right off the ground. Problem solved. I soloed it today. What an awesome feeling. Thanks again for the advice. https://youtu.be/upT1CPJE7p0

  9. #9
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    A Kitfox 3 will likely not have a trim tab on the elevator, or a trimmable horizontal stab like 5s and up. Flaps are used for trim. Retract flaps for more nose up trim, and extend flaps for more nose down. That said, what you guys do on a 5 and up isn't relevant for a Kitfox 3.

    I have a Kitfox 4 1050 with no trim tab and uses flaps for trim. Power is a 2-stroke 582.

    The flap position for a good climb speed how mine is rigged is with the flap handle about an inch from fully retracted. You get to know what position works best for you. That becomes takeoff trim. With that setting I can literally apply power, let the airplane accelerate, and with no forward pressure on the stick, the tail will come off the ground just a little, about a foot or so I figure, and the airplane will lift off on its own, go right to that climb airspeed and off I go. I sometimes vary the amount of flaps I have in for takeoff depending on what I want to do. You could put in no flaps (nose up trim), ram the power in and make a 3-point takeoff, or put in a little more flap (nose down trim), apply power nice and smooth and be given a gentle liftoff into a shallow climb attitude for long runways and passengers not used to flying in little airplanes.

    As for power application, when by myself, I can takeoff well below full throttle and given the runway lengths I am generally using, I like to use a pretty gradual power application to make things smoother as this is just more pleasant for my sensibilities. Sure you can to the hold brakes, full power, release, force tail up, pop flaps, nose to ground effect, retract flaps and fly off in a spectacular short field takeoff, but get used to the airplane first.

    In summary, for a Kitfox 1-4 without elevator or stab trim:
    1. I would definitely use flaps on takeoff, but only as pitch trim. Find the setting that gives you a comfortable climb speed/angle and remember that setting. You can find this at altitude by just initiating a full power climb and adjusting flaps to achieve the speed/angle you want. Use this for your takeoff trim setting.

    2. Use smooth power application for takeoff. There is plenty of power available in most circumstances and you can always feed the rest in after the wheels come off. This will help you learn the airplane.

    3. I'm not a fan of forcing the tail up except when it is absolutely necessary to get it off early. Hold a neutral stick position, the tail will come up by itself without a bunch of power induced yaw when it does, making it easier to keep the airplane straight. The early Kitfoxes with stock gear have a narrow track and one could say they are "tippy" side to side.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  10. #10

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    Lawrenceville, GA
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    Default Re: Takeoff Procedure

    Agree with everything you said. I'll also note that the stick forces are very light at low speed. At higher speed yes the flap handle is the effective trim control. Took a lot of flap to keep it level at 90mph. Burned gas like crazy too, very draggy at speed. 65 mph much more fun. Could fly with the door open and burned way less gas.

    Mind did have a mark on beside the flap handle for take off. More flap would get it off the ground faster.



    Quote Originally Posted by 109JB View Post
    A Kitfox 3 will likely not have a trim tab on the elevator, or a trimmable horizontal stab like 5s and up. Flaps are used for trim. Retract flaps for more nose up trim, and extend flaps for more nose down. That said, what you guys do on a 5 and up isn't relevant for a Kitfox 3.

    I have a Kitfox 4 1050 with no trim tab and uses flaps for trim. Power is a 2-stroke 582.

    The flap position for a good climb speed how mine is rigged is with the flap handle about an inch from fully retracted. You get to know what position works best for you. That becomes takeoff trim. With that setting I can literally apply power, let the airplane accelerate, and with no forward pressure on the stick, the tail will come off the ground just a little, about a foot or so I figure, and the airplane will lift off on its own, go right to that climb airspeed and off I go. I sometimes vary the amount of flaps I have in for takeoff depending on what I want to do. You could put in no flaps (nose up trim), ram the power in and make a 3-point takeoff, or put in a little more flap (nose down trim), apply power nice and smooth and be given a gentle liftoff into a shallow climb attitude for long runways and passengers not used to flying in little airplanes.

    As for power application, when by myself, I can takeoff well below full throttle and given the runway lengths I am generally using, I like to use a pretty gradual power application to make things smoother as this is just more pleasant for my sensibilities. Sure you can to the hold brakes, full power, release, force tail up, pop flaps, nose to ground effect, retract flaps and fly off in a spectacular short field takeoff, but get used to the airplane first.

    In summary, for a Kitfox 1-4 without elevator or stab trim:
    1. I would definitely use flaps on takeoff, but only as pitch trim. Find the setting that gives you a comfortable climb speed/angle and remember that setting. You can find this at altitude by just initiating a full power climb and adjusting flaps to achieve the speed/angle you want. Use this for your takeoff trim setting.

    2. Use smooth power application for takeoff. There is plenty of power available in most circumstances and you can always feed the rest in after the wheels come off. This will help you learn the airplane.

    3. I'm not a fan of forcing the tail up except when it is absolutely necessary to get it off early. Hold a neutral stick position, the tail will come up by itself without a bunch of power induced yaw when it does, making it easier to keep the airplane straight. The early Kitfoxes with stock gear have a narrow track and one could say they are "tippy" side to side.
    Building a KF IV Classic

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