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Thread: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

  1. #1

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    Default Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    I don't really want to maintain two build logs, so I'm looking for a recommendation. Is there a preference/advantage to putting your build log on either system? I get that the KF forum is going to be more focused to the KF community, but does the FAA care when it comes to reviewing your build records? Any other considerations?

    What do you all think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    I don't think the FAA cares at all. They did not even ask if I had a build log, other than to see some written records, build manual checklist/signoffs, some photos with me in them. I personally believe the Kitfox Forum is a much better place if you want to do a build log. You will get far far more comments, encouragement and help than any other place.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  3. #3
    Senior Member Delta Whisky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    Dutch - I disagree with Jim but just a bit. (What a way to start off, huh?) The FAA does care and you can see what they are supposed to be looking for in Order 8130.2j. The order is a huge document but downloads in pdf format and can be searched really easily. There are three areas that outline the experimental aircraft licensing requirements in which most of us are interested. Check out section 15-4, paragraphs (a) and (b), to see the answer to your question - sort of - because here's where real life gets involved. After the normal one or two phone calls you've had with either the fed or the DAR and then later in person, after about 10 minutes with the applicant and the almost-legal-airplane, the inspector has a really good idea of the experience level and knowledge of the applicant. It is then (realistically) he determines what gets inspected and to what level. What Jim showed them constitutes a pretty good "log" and I'm guessing that by then the inspector knew who he was dealing with (and I mean that to be a favorable comment) and he saw enough to know who built the plane and how well it was built. It doesn't have to be a notebook, or something that looks like a "log". They do use the word log in the order but also list a variety of items that constitute a "log". Whatever tack you take, I recommend taking lots of pictures and put the most important ones in your "log". I say this because I've been frustrated when I would have liked to have a picture to answer a question or help a fellow builder after the plane had been finished - but I kept only the ones that went into my log.

  4. #4
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    Just to clarify my comment; The FAA doesn't care if you have a formal online build log like we see on the Kitfox or EAA forums. The documents, checklists, photos, notes, etc. you keep during the build constitute the "log". As Delta said, the FAA document lists the kind of thing they want to see in whatever you present them. Each DAR has discretion as to how much of it he needs to see, but my experience in talking to 5 Kitfox builders here in the NW (including myself) indicates quite a wide range on thoroughness of the inspection, but seemed like always much less of a demand for documentation and photos than the builder expected. Just my observations.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  5. #5
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    Of the 2 choices I vote EAA build log for complying with what FAA is supposed to be looking at. The FAA or DAR should be looking at what you did. a thread on TeamKitfox will have pages and pages of comments by others. That is nice for you, but not necessarily what the FAA/DAR needs.

    That said, maybe I'm old school, but when I built my Sonerai, I kept a paper log in a notebook. It was next to the door of my shop so all I had to do was take 30 seconds and make a note of what I did that day and how long I spent on it. That combined with some pictures during construction is all you will need. This instead of going inside, firing up the computer, logging in and then creating a post, etc. I know me and if I tried to do it on the computer I would not record stuff. For example, grabbing a few hours before some family event and rushing out. I'd take the few seconds for the paper log, but would skip the computer log and hope I remembered later.

    So, I would really do paper for the official FAA build log, and TeamKitfox for and unofficial log and camaraderie.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  6. #6
    Senior Member Dave S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    On questions like this I always like to refer to source. In this case, FAA Advisory Circular 20-27G covers the documentation requirements; and, there is more than one option. (https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/.../AC_20-27G.pdf) Note that 2009 is still current.

    FWIW - the Kitfox construction manual included with the kit provides page by page sequential signoff which solves a lot of the requirement. The build manual ends up being a construction log. Nothing wrong with adding notes on the pages of the manual as work proceeds along with filling the provided spaces for dates and signatures. Additional notebooks of activities and modification; and, photos - especially ones which show the builder working on the plane. Many ways to float your boat so there are innumerable options to meet the requirement - remember, you are trying to demonstrate you built 51% of the plane so the FAA can sign off on it as an EAB.

    Excerpt from page 7:

    "
    h.Ensure You Understand the Need To Properly Document Your Project.It is
    important todocument the entire fabrication and assembly process from the beginning to the end, in a continuous and sequential manner. This is because, at the time of
    certification, the FAA is required to ascertain whether the amateur builder(s) fabricated
    and assembled the major portion of the aircraft. Making this finding requires adequate,
    sufficient, and credible documentation. This documentation should clearly show who
    performed the task(s), when and where the tasks were performed, depict the methods of construction and quality of workmanship, and document the use of commercial and
    non-commercial assistance. Examples of documentation and methods that can be used include the following:
    (1)The Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009);
    (2)Comprehensivebuilder’s logs in any format, to include photographs of all
    the steps included in each of the listed tasks in the Amateur-Builder Aircraft Fabrication
    and Assembly Checklist (2009), materials and techniques used in construction, as well as dates, locations, and detailed descriptions;
    (3)Photographs/video/DVD;
    (4)Drawings and engineering specifications;
    (5)Kit manufacturer’s data, when necessary;
    (6)Relevant documentation (for example, plans) and references (for example,
    handbooks) used;
    (7)Documentation concerning any commercial assistance used, including
    receipts;
    (8)Documentation concerning any non-commercial assistance used;
    (9)Part inventories and histories;
    (10)Receipts and catalogs; and
    (11)Logbook entries.
    "
    Dave S
    Kitfox 7 Trigear (Flying since 2009)
    912ULS Warp Drive

    St Paul, MN

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    Ugh, I pretty much expected these were going to be the views, and they're all valid points. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to go contemplate for a while now...

  8. #8
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    FWIW. Fortunately, I had periodically put together a Photo album through Shutterfly. I used them to take to work and show people who took interest in the build. My computer crashed and the books were all that I had to show the FSDO. He loved it. And Im grateful to still have coffee table books.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    We used our manual as our "build log" recommended by kitfox. Date and signed each task. Then I took photos and showed him the photos on my ipad. Easy peasy.
    Dustin Dickerson

    Building 7ss STI x 2
    Oratex
    29" shock monster
    EP912STI 155hp
    Garmin
    N33TF......FLYING!
    N53TF......FLYING!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Kitfox Forum, or EAA Build Log?

    I'm using the EAA build log because I found it handles photos much better than the forum. There are easy to use tools to rename photo captions and to rotate pictures that this site doesn't have, or are hard to use. I just post things here when I have specific problems, and the support that I'm received is great. I put a link to my log in my signature for those wishing to look.
    Greg Anderson
    7SS in "production" : https://eaabuilderslog.org/?s=ganderson
    Richland, WA

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