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Thread: Kitfox Registration

  1. #11
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    All good information but I disagree with one point.

    EAB's are not "certified" at any weight. They receive an airworthiness certificate and operating limitations that are blank when received. The DAR/FAA will review weight and balance, but nothing with the airplane's weight is sent to Oklahoma City for the airplane's permanent record. The gross weight of a homebuilt is determined during the flight test phase and entered into the Operating Limitations and the aircraft records. These are not sent to OKC. YOU will determine the gross weight when conducting phase 1 flight testing.

    Production airplanes have certified gross weights but they also have type certificates, which EAB's do not.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)

  2. #12
    Birdseyeview's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    John, Wow - this is very interesting - so you're saying that the gross weight that I determine during the phase 1 testing will become the basis of my airplane's limitations only. As such and in my case, the gross weight will have nothing to do with the aircraft's design capabilities (1550 lbs) but instead will be limited by my light sport license limitation (1320 lbs). This strikes me as a little strange and now I know why I was confused by all this earlier, but who am I to question the authorities that came up with this rule. I can only hope that the future rule changes on light sport aircraft and the associated light sport pilot restrictions will allow for a higher gross weight so that I can take full advantage of the Kitfox's true design limit. I would also hope and assume that when that happens there will be a straight forward legal pathway for me to update my gross weight limitation. Thanks for opening my eyes to all this.
    Larry Olson
    Kitfox Series 6 - building
    Tri-gear, smooth cowl
    912 ULS

  3. #13
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    Larry, you and I both will be submitting Phase 1 paperwork to increase to the 1550#. It will be easy.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    Quote Originally Posted by 109JB View Post
    EAB's are not "certified" at any weight.
    Excellent point; thanks for the correction!
    Eric Page
    Building Kitfox 5 Safari
    Member: EAA, AOPA, ALPA
    ATP: MEL / Comm: SEL, Glider / ATCS: CTO
    Map of Landings

  5. #15
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdseyeview View Post
    John, Wow - this is very interesting - so you're saying that the gross weight that I determine during the phase 1 testing will become the basis of my airplane's limitations only. As such and in my case, the gross weight will have nothing to do with the aircraft's design capabilities (1550 lbs) but instead will be limited by my light sport license limitation (1320 lbs). This strikes me as a little strange and now I know why I was confused by all this earlier, but who am I to question the authorities that came up with this rule. I can only hope that the future rule changes on light sport aircraft and the associated light sport pilot restrictions will allow for a higher gross weight so that I can take full advantage of the Kitfox's true design limit. I would also hope and assume that when that happens there will be a straight forward legal pathway for me to update my gross weight limitation. Thanks for opening my eyes to all this.
    Yes. This is why you can use a Kitfox whose design capabilities would allow flying at 1550 lb for light sport, but see below. So, you build it, fly the phase 1 tests up to 1320, record 1320 as the maximum weight tested during phase 1, that becomes the maximum gross weight that you can fly that particular airplane at. It is legal for LSA. Then lets say that later on you do get your private pilot certificate, or they raise the LSA weight limit and you would like to use the extra capability of the airplane. You simply notify your FSDO about what you want to do, they will have you re-enter phase 1 flight testing, you test it up to the new gross weight you want and voila... you now have a higher gross weight. The notification and approval to re-enter phase 1 can and probably will be by phone and e-mail. Simple. Also, depending on how you interpret your operating limitations, it might not even require notifying FAA. They have changed the standard wording on Op Lims many times over the years. I know that for my Sonerai, I can basically do anything and re-enter phase 1 on my own because it was finished at a time when the op lims were very lenient. Nowadays, the op lims are a bit more stringent, but I still don't this would require notification since no actual changes to the airplane are made. Simply make a log entry saying re-entering phase 1 to verify flight performance at increased weight, do the testing and make another entry when done.

    Be aware though that once you go above 1320 you don't get to come back down. This is why folks buying an already built airplane need to be careful about what the tested gross weight was. For example, the original builder sets the gross weight of his Series 7 at 1550. A new buyer can't just make a log entry saying the gross weight is limited to 1320 and fly it as an lsa. It had already gone over, so can't come back down.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)

  6. #16
    Senior Member Maverick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    I set my gross to 1320# but classified it as Experimental Armature Built based on the recommendation of one of the advisors at EAA headquarters. He said that doing this would make it so the market for selling it when the time comes would be larger because if a private pilot wanted it to have a heavier gross weight it could go up whereas if you classified it as Experimental Light Sport, that would not be possible.

    https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aviation-int...ort%20Aircraft
    EAA, AOPA
    KF5 (N49FK & N36KJ)
    Phoenix, AZ

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    You want this to be an E-LSA if you can go that route. It will substantially increase value as future owners can take a 2-day course to qualify to apply for a Repairman Certificate for that particular aircraft. With an EAB, only the builder listed on the 8130-12 can have the repairman cert thus perform “condition inspections” in addition to A&P and IA’s.
    With an E-LSA, ANY CURRENT OWNER who holds a Repairman Cert (qualified by either building it or taking the two-day course) or A&P or IA can perform the condition inspection.
    Of course, theoretically any ******* can perform maintenance or repairs on an experimental...

  8. #18
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    To register as an E-LSA it has to be built from an approved E-LSA kit. You cannot just register any homebuilt airplane as a E-LSA even if that airplane does meet the LSA criteria.

    Also, if you register as EAB it is only paperwork to get the repairman certificate for your airplane.

    On the other hand if you register as E-LSA (If you even can), then YOU would have to take a 16 hours course to be able to do the condition inspections on your airplane that you just finished building.

    There is nothing theoretical about it. Anyone can do maintenance on an EAB except for the condition inspection.

    Here is some reading: http://www.faa-aircraft-certificatio...ght-sport.html
    https://inspire.eaa.org/2019/05/16/b...o-maintenance/
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)

  9. #19

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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    Quote Originally Posted by 109JB View Post
    To register as an E-LSA it has to be built from an approved E-LSA kit. You cannot just register any homebuilt airplane as a E-LSA even if that airplane does meet the LSA criteria.
    You hit the nail on the head. Are nearly all KF kits E-LSA qualified? I’m a Flightworks Capella XS owner who’s bird barely made the cutoff date to register it as n E-LSA (“None, Reg. Prior to 01/31/08”)

  10. #20
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox Registration

    I believe John has it correct "approved" E-LSA kit. An E-LSA has to be built as Kitfox dictates. It has to be built the same as the S-LSA to be approved and I believe Kitfox does not have this option. I could be wrong but EAB is our only option I believe. A call To Kitfox would clarify that for certain. This may explain why you don't see them registered E-LSA?
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

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