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Thread: Questions about kit options

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
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    Ottawa, Ontario Canada
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    Default Questions about kit options

    So -- after a lot of careful and time consuming consideration (paralysis by analysis) I have put my deposit down on a Kitfox SS7. I'm still not entirely sure the SS7 is right or if an STI would be better, but seeing as the lead time is getting longer and longer, I didn't want to procrastinate any longer. I live in Ontario Canada, which is generally low elevation, but it is filled with lakes -- eventually I'd like to put the kitfox on floats in summer and skis in the winter. However I'd like to do more than just local flying -- I'd like to travel with the plane in its various configurations. This led me to the SS7 with its versatility.

    I do however -- still have some questions about some of the options offered for the kit. I was hoping I could get some advice on the positives and/or negatives on some of the options. Obviously the options cost more, so that may be a negative in some view -- but I was hoping for info not so much on the cost, but on how these options may affect the plane during construction, and during flight.

    Specifically I was wondering about:

    Tinted windshield and tinted bubble doors? -- is the tint a detriment during night flight operations or any other down side?
    Composite leading edge?
    4130 Chromoly Streamline wing struts (and the streamlined horizontal tail struts) -- how are these better/worse than streamlining with pvc?
    Vortex Generators? -- I know what these do in general, but but are there any cons?

    I also have some questions about tools, but I'll save that for another post.

    Thanks again -- I've been lurking here and posting very infrequently, but I hope to be able to contribute in a positive way at some point.

    Dave.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    Winkler Mb
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    I don't have answers to any other questions, other than the VG's. Only con to VG's is washing the wing with them on. But the pro's far outweigh the cons. Its really not that bad washing with vgs on the wing. I lowered my stall speed significantly with VG's and much cleaner stall. I use to get a very abrupt break and a slight wing drop, and now it just mushes down, very predictable. I would 100% recommend VG's!!

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    Feb 2020
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    Steilacoom, WA
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    I can only provide partial answers, and of course those answers come with an opinion which you get for free (and worth every penny).

    I flew a Series 7SS just over a week ago. It is a STOL aircraft and very capable of going pretty much anywhere. The STI is for the extreme crowd who are focused on mind bending short field work (or just looking cool). My instructor at Stick & Rudder told me that at cruise he has to pull back the power in the 7SS to allow the 915 powered STI to keep up and he burns less gas all day long. That didn't really surprise me. The STI they have is on Monster Shock Gear and huge tires, which are a significant drag penalty (and obviously worth it to some).

    After flying the 7SS over three days I am positive I will be quite happy with the "regular" wing.

    I was told that the CrMo streamlined lift struts save the builder something like 30 hours because they bolt on and you're done. My project came with both aero and round tube lift struts and I sold the round ones right away. I can tell you the aero struts are much heavier than the round ones, certainly before you apply the plastic and make them smooth. They do lighten your wallet significantly so there is that bonus. The PVC faired struts are fragile should some well meaning individual attempt to help you push your plane back, but you probably already know that.

    My project also came with the fiberglass Laker leading edge, which I'll be installing in the next couple of weeks. There is certainly a weight penalty for installing them but from where I am at they will be easier to do the body and fender work, and provide a nice leading edge. The 7SS I flew had the fiberglass leading edge, so yet another thing that won't be a surprise in the handling department.

    I can't help you on the vortex generators but I imagine having the fiberglass leading edge will facilitate installation of those too.

    I also can't help on the tinted doors/windshield. The turtle deck on the plane I few was dark tint and it was easy to see out of, but that was day time only and of course less critical than the doors and windshield. I will say visibility from inside the plane is fantastic.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  4. #4
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Jun 2015
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    Yorba Linda, CA
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    Hello Dave
    Allow me to add to your "paralysis" if I may. After all, I paralyze people on a daily basis. I can speak to most of these issues of yours. Starting with the tint. Get it. It has no impact on the build and I have flown my plane at night without noticing they were even tinted. Mind you, this has been above the LA California area where city light dominates. If you have been lurking here you may have seen my pics. The best Pic I have that demonstrates how nice they make the plane look is in the October 2020 SportAviation magazine, in the members builds section. By the looks, it would seem too dark but it is just the lighting. I fly frequently until 30 minutes past sunset which happens to be the most difficult period for your visual acuity. I don't have any issues with the tint, on the bubble nor the windscreen. Second, I have plastic airfoil covers on round struts. I sure like the metal ones that Fred has over in Torrance, CA. I just saw them recently. Using plastic does add time, particularly if you grind down the plastic ridges along there lengths. Takes awhile to do even with an orbital sander. Maybe 4 or so hours to sand them all down. Then you have to cut and mate the pieces as well. Next, Laker Leading Edge. It happens to be nearly the only option, that I believed was available, that I did not get at the time I placed my order. Fortunately, I happen to be short and from my vantage point I look at the leading edge and see smooth. Yes the further I get away the more of the scalloping I see between ribs. In my mind I said, its a tube and fabric airplane anyhow. I was also under the impression that our friend in Australia was flying the continent without the LLE. I felt like, if it works for him it will work for me. But, he advised me here that he had the LLE. My plane stalls with full flaps at 38mph. The Series 7SS has such docile stall characteristics to start with so... they say the stall character improves with the LLE, who could argue. Possibly some top speed as well maybe? I don't recall. My standard wing gets me a TAS of 120mph Cruise if I use 5500rpm in smooth air as it sits with the prop setting I use. Single occupant and half tank of gas, I climb at 1000fpm standard temp day. 1000ft DA. I used the $ on the T3 and ABW tail wheel. Vortex Gens, I don't have those either. I was a line person when I was younger. I hated washing those things. But my employer gave me crappy brushes as well, so....
    I might have done this for more performance if I didn't think the plane can out perform me as it is already. Unfortunately, I fly in Southern California and the outback trips are infrequent because of the distances involved. I only just got to do a true outback camping trip this past weekend and I could have flown the approach slower than I did with the equipment I have. I would have to fly a lot of short, backcountry strips before I learned how to maximize the utility. For me, installing them now is like, just more work.
    Hope that helps. Reversing your type of paralysis is more difficult than at work. There, I just give a different drug.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  5. #5
    DMMeix's Avatar
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    Oct 2020
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    Santa Maria, CA
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    I feel like I'm just getting more paralyzed, but it seems I have time to go back and forth. Can I ask what the expected lead time for your kit is?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Maverick's Avatar
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    Phoenix
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    I wonder about what you intend the airplane to do. Some of those options might enhance performance in one regard or another. Does the LLE add speed or reduce stall? If performance isn't in the equation, then are you planning to try and win a Lindy with it? Does the LLE enhance the aesthetic appeal to make it worth the time, effort, and money? I don't know anything about the LLE other than what I've seen on other's planes. My plane has the traditional wing and I get the performance Eddie gets as described below and am satisfied with that.

    As for the struts. Eddie mentioned sanding off the ridges but those are there for a reason. They are intended to maintain laminar flow over the fairing like dimples do on a golf ball so unless you just don't like them, there's no advantage to taking them off. The round struts with the PVC fairings are lighter than the newer streamlined ones and given what you intend to do in the way of floats/skis surely you want to save as much weight as possible. The streamlined ones will save you time if that is a factor in your decision.

    The bubble doors and tinted windshield is something I definitely would get. The bubble doors are self explanatory, more elbow room. The tinting is because of where I live and fly. . . One thing I don't get too little of is sunshine. Being in Canada you might want to evaluate that by checking with other pilots in your area that have tinted their windshields. There may be seasonal changes that might make you wish you didn't or did have the tint and what would be their reasons for being for or against.

    As for the VGs, the jury is divided as to whether these help a Kitfox enough to justify. Some are very much for them and others are very ambivalent. Some are middle of the road about them but, whatever camp you might fall into, the good thing is that you can add these anytime after you finish your build. It's not like you have to buy them now or decide five years from now.
    EAA, AOPA
    KF5 (N49FK & N36KJ)
    Phoenix, AZ

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario Canada
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    Thanks to everyone who has replied -- All very helpful advice.

    Tint = seems to be a yes
    4130 = time saver, but weigh more
    VG's = maybe
    LLE = mostly looks, and weigh more.

    I have flown an SS7 at S&R -- it had the 914 with a ground adjustable prop and I was amazed at the performance. In terms of what I want to do with the plane... sure I'd love to build to the level of wining an award, but it's also the first plane I'll have ever built, and I have to be realistic. At this point I'd like to one day find myself with a "nice" finished plane that flies well on skis, floats and wheels.

    On the topic of my lead time -- I was told Q2 2023. Some might find that a bit depressing, to have to wait so long. In some ways I do as well, on the other hand it leads me to believe that KitFox is doing well and isn't going anywhere.

    Thanks again for all the advice.
    Dave.

  8. #8
    DMMeix's Avatar
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    Oct 2020
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    Thanks for the info, Dave. Q2 2023 is about when I want to start building as well. Hopefully I won't be far behind!

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    Nampa, ID
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    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    According our weights, the 4130 streamlined struts we're about 1 pound difference/ heavier.... between a fully finished, body worked and painted PVC faired standard round lift strut. Not really worth sweating about given the peace of mind when it comes to handing (other people handling) your aircraft.

    B


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    Westfield, IN
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    187

    Default Re: Questions about kit options

    If you have the money, I would do the 4130. Those were a pain.

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