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Thread: If you need insurance...

  1. #11

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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Insurance is such a scam. Like yeah go ahead and pay me some money for something that likely won’t happen


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  2. #12
    Senior Member Eric Page's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrayner View Post
    Insurance is such a scam.
    Crash your airplane with your neighbor's kid in the right seat, putting him in a wheelchair, then tell us how much of a scam your insurance is.

    A good friend just had his son land his C-172RG gear up, destroying the prop, governor, engine, antennas, belly skins, etc. Total loss. Insurance company is writing him a check for the hull value and he's free to buy another plane. I don't think he feels like he got scammed.
    Eric Page
    Building: Kitfox 5 Safari | Rotax 912iS | Dynon HDX
    Member: EAA Lifetime, AOPA, ALPA
    ATP: AMEL | Comm: ASEL, Glider | ATCS: CTO
    Map of Landings

  3. #13

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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrayner View Post
    Insurance is such a scam. Like yeah go ahead and pay me some money for something that likely won’t happen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I don't mean to lecture but I will take exception to your claim that "insurance is such a scam." I have been flying for 44 yrs and in the insurance business for 16 yrs.

    Insurance companies assume 98% of the risk associated with insuring an aircraft. They do so because in fact they don't expect to pay out. But stuff happens and then the payout happens.

    I have seen prop strikes, people/prop strikes, engine failures resulting in death and injuries, rotor/prop wash accidents, wind storm damage to hangared aircraft, etc. Checkout the Aviation Safety Network for the daily listing of accidents and incidents. If these aircraft hadn't been insured the results would have been financial ruin in the majority of the cases.

    Be safe and never have a claim.

    Regards.

    GT

  4. #14
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by gtinla View Post
    I have been an aviation insurance agent for the past 11 years. The industry is changing in the following ways. 1. at least 4 insurers have quit the GA business in the last 24 months. 2. Premiums that were in a decline have started to rise significantly due to losses and less competition. 3. Current carriers are reducing their exposure to unique aircraft types. 4. Carriers are favoring annual training exposures versus the "BFR." 5. Some underwriters are surcharging Basic Med pilots. 6. Some underwriters are not insuring Basic Med pilots age 70 or older. 6. Some underwriters have a minimum premium of $3k. 7. One carrier has a minimum age of 25 yrs.

    Feel free to PM or call if you have any questions.

    GT
    N1461F Kitfox IV (in the 40hr test flight stage)
    ATP CFI CFII MEI SEL SES MEL MES FEJ
    Thanks for posting this. I'm curious what the actuarial math is for pilots over 70. Is it a real statistic? I don't think the sky is raining old geezers. I met the chief pilot of Kenmore Air at a christmas party a couple of years ago and he said his best pilots were all over 70.

    I will say that your post about recurrent training prompted me to reach out to Stick & Rudder so I can get Kitfox specific training. Looks like I'll be making a road trip to Idaho in March.

    And *** with "minimum premium of $3k"? My Citabria insurance went down every year I owned it and was around $550 last year even when I added a pilot with low tail wheel time to my policy.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  5. #15
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexM View Post
    Thanks for posting this. I'm curious what the actuarial math is for pilots over 70. Is it a real statistic? I don't think the sky is raining old geezers. I met the chief pilot of Kenmore Air at a christmas party a couple of years ago and he said his best pilots were all over 70.

    I will say that your post about recurrent training prompted me to reach out to Stick & Rudder so I can get Kitfox specific training. Looks like I'll be making a road trip to Idaho in March.

    And *** with "minimum premium of $3k"? My Citabria insurance went down every year I owned it and was around $550 last year even when I added a pilot with low tail wheel time to my policy.
    Alex I'm afraid you are in for a bit of sticker shock when you go to insure your Kitfox . I've been flying my Series 5 for 18 years and have an on and off insurance history. Most years only liability a few years liability and hull , even a few years neither and during those years I give no rides. I am retired airline 19,000 hrs. , coming up on 1000 hrs make and model in my airplane with a no accident , no incident, no claims history. Just went thru the best rate hunt for the umpteenth time and the best I could do was $1384 for $55000 hull plus liability. I think you will find the Experimental insurance market to be a lot like you described in the Warbird market. If my Kitfox was a cessna 150 (or Citabria) I'd probably be around a $500-600 / year premium. A clean history and experience doesn't seem to matter in this market . Bruce N199CL

  6. #16
    Senior Member PapuaPilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by airlina View Post
    Alex I'm afraid you are in for a bit of sticker shock when you go to insure your Kitfox . I've been flying my Series 5 for 18 years and have an on and off insurance history. Most years only liability a few years liability and hull , even a few years neither and during those years I give no rides. I am retired airline 19,000 hrs. , coming up on 1000 hrs make and model in my airplane with a no accident , no incident, no claims history. Just went thru the best rate hunt for the umpteenth time and the best I could do was $1384 for $55000 hull plus liability. I think you will find the Experimental insurance market to be a lot like you described in the Warbird market. If my Kitfox was a cessna 150 (or Citabria) I'd probably be around a $500-600 / year premium. A clean history and experience doesn't seem to matter in this market . Bruce N199CL
    Your experience sounds very similar to mine too Bruce. I only have 10,000 hours TT, 400 in type and about 1,000 in tailwheel. I am paying roughly the same premium as you for $65K hull. When I initially went looking for insurance the agent said there weren't any other boxes to tick to reduce my rate since I had my commercial, instrument, SEL, SES, SEL and lots of tailwheel, complex, turboprop and retractable time.
    Phil Nelson
    A&P-IA, Maintenance Instructor
    KF 5 Outback, Cont. IO-240
    Flying since 2016

  7. #17
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Bruce and Phil,
    That's sobering, so thanks for that. I think. A quote of $1384 for liability and $55k hull wouldn't be ridiculous.

    By comparison, $3k was the quote I got to provide dual instruction in my Citabria with a $30k hull value. I'll report back what my quote is when it comes in, which should be early next week.

    If it is extreme then I'll carry liability only just to shut my county owned hangar manager up. My Kitfox is being paid for over time with cash, so if I bend it I will repair it the same way.

    I'm not going to declare insurance as a scam but comparing them to a casino isn't too far off. The rules always favor the house. They are after all a for-profit business.

    Not quite two years ago my car was vandalized by a random crackhead in the parking lot at work. It was my first insurance claim in over 40 years of paying USAA and I was always annoyed at paying since I never even filed a claim for a chipped windshield. I also always declined extra coverage when renting vehicles for the same reason.
    IMG_20190503_090522-01.jpg
    The bill for my car was almost $7k.

    But wait, there's more
    While my car was being repaired I was put into an rental car, an Infinity QX60. USAA specifically told me that I was covered to drive the car and not to worry about a thing.

    Two days before I expected my own car back I picked my favorite woman up at the airport and drove home. Not even a half mile from the house some teenagers on a joy ride came flying around a blind, very tight corner. They crossed the centerline at over 45mph for sure. This road is cut into a hillside with no escape so all I could do was peg the brakes and move as far to the right as possible.

    I will never forget seeing the impending direct head and knowing that we were probably all dead or at least seriously maimed. I got to experience my first full air bag deployment. The Infinity which was almost brand new was completely destroyed. The little Mitsubishi the girls were driving hit us hard enough to shove us backwards into the jersey barrier, twisting the big SUV enough to jam doors closed.

    I had a broken thumb. My girlfriend had a banged up knee and hit her head. Thankfully "this isn't your father's Oldsmobile", am I right?

    The scene when I finally managed to get my door open was pretty crazy. The girl in the right rear of the car had poured out and was on her head with her butt sticking straight up. I was sure she was dead and two of her friends were freaking out shaking her. She flopped around like she didn't have a bone in her body. The girl in the right front seat of the car had been ejected down the road. I tell people it was over 25 yards so it seems even slightly plausible but it was considerably further.

    I remember being confused because she was walking up the hill towards us and I thought she was a friend of theirs who witnessed the accident. The girls were all high on something which may explain why the one walking up the hill was just mad about the accident and not yet aware of her injuries. The "dead" girl eventually regained consciousness just as the medics arrived.
    IMG_20190518_230520.jpg
    IMG_20190518_230503.jpg
    You can see the wheel track up the right front fender of the car, which was caused by the left front wheel of the SUV, and left fender was treated slightly worse by the right wheel of the SUV. The Infinity doesn't look that bad from the front in this image but the insurance agent for Enterprise sent me 36 images of the SUV in the wrecking yard and it was TOAST. None of the doors fit.

    The kicker was the 17 year old driver carried the bare minimum of insurance, just like I used to do. Thank the Maker it covered the SUV because otherwise I could have been stuck paying for a brand new SUV that I didn't like and couldn't drive. I finally got my $500 deductible back about two months ago.

    The medical coverage? Is still an ongoing issue two years down the road. Three of those girls in the image were taken to the emergency room and lawyered up. The amount of bodily injury coverage will be divided up at some future date but it won't pay but a fraction of the bills. We were advised to also seek legal counsel which has been all but useless.

    When I rent cars or even U-haul trailers now I happily check the box that says "I will return this vehicle in unrecognizable condition and you will say thank you".
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  8. #18
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Alex, a scary story indeed, crazy world out there and we never know whats coming around the next bend. Glad all survived, looks like it could have gone another way very easily. Bruce N199CL

  9. #19
    Super Moderator desertdave's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Quite the story, I'm glad nobody was killed. Living in a border state I learned long ago that you can't have enough insurance. Just once I want to be hit by somebody with a drivers license and insurance or better yet, not get hit at all.
    I too check the box on the rental agreement that lets me toss the keys on the counter and say "It's your problem now".
    Be safest out there!
    Dave
    KitFox 6 Taildragger
    912 ULS
    Whirlwind 70” Prop
    Garmin G3x
    All around nice guy

  10. #20

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    Default Re: If you need insurance...

    Travers was the ONLY insurance agency that was able to get me a several million dollar life insurance policy that has no exclusions for the part 91 and 135 flying that I do. Amazing how most pilots don’t realize that many of their existing life insurance policies won’t pay out in the case of an aircraft crash.


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