How many are installing/switching to the Yamaha Apex Engine?

[Rik]

Here comes the defenders with that "insurance, layers and liability" argument.

Tell us, when is the last time you have seen any of those three amigo's come into effect with your personal aircraft life, much less your "Experimental Aircraft Experiences"

There are no guarantee's with an Aircraft engine in the first place. There certainly aren't any guarantee's in the experimental market place either so bringing those three into the equation is just the habit from the brain washing days of certified aircraft.

Certainly, you can use a certified engine in an experimental aircraft, you just have to write a larger check is all. There is no data to support that every certified engine will last longer than every non certified engine out there. However, some owners are willing to trade X amount of hours for X+ amounts of $ if needed. Remember, most pilots non Part 135, are cheap SOB's and in proving so, we see everything from a Rotax, Lycoming, Continental, Subaru, VW, Yamaha, Suzuki, Mazda, to a Chevrolet being installed into these planes in order to fit the budget of the builder/owner.

If the Yamaha will last only 1,000 hrs vs 1,500 for certified and only cost 4k vs 20+K then it's a no brainer as to what people will want to do with their buying power. Let's not forget that most certified engines are top'd at 1,000 hrs so really none of these are going to last for ever and none are ever going to be cheap enough in some's eyes.

[109JB]

Here comes the defenders with that "insurance, layers and liability" argument.

Tell us, when is the last time you have seen any of those three amigo's come into effect with your personal aircraft life, much less your "Experimental Aircraft Experiences"

It affects me right now. Many of the aircraft insurance companies will not insure an airplane that has a converted engine. My current ride is a Sonerai with a converted VW engine and my broker told me that many of the companies they deal with refused to quote because Sonerais are typically VW powered. Even the quotes that were received had several that stated emphatically that an airplane with a converted engine could not be covered. Here is what one quote, that I still happen to have, that said in the notes section of the quote: "This is an experimental aircraft. To bind this quote the make and model of the installed engine must be documented to us and approved by the underwriter. Aircraft equipped with automobile engines and two-stroke engines are not acceptable."

The situation was similar when I had my 582 powered Kitfox, the 2-stroke was a deal killer for many of the quotes I got and i had to go with a company that charged about 50% more than what a 912 powered Kitfox would cost.

Did either of these instances it stop me? No, of course not, but it did in fact affect me in the wallet and is in turn still affecting me and my "Experimental Aircraft Experience".

[Rik]

Understand.

I didn't want to write on and on and on but at one time, Rotax were seen as inferior to the normalcy of aircraft engines. Now they are the gold standard and they charge accordingly.

Still today, there are pilots who wish nothing to do with a Rotax engine. Flip side if you can write the check, Rotax needs roughly $55K for an installed 915iS (requires a certain panel constraints and a constant speed propeller which add $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

The VW, as I mentioned was an attempt to not pay for a certified engine. There has been a history both good and bad with these engines and thus the results from an insurance companies willingness to insure the aircraft, however, they are not the arguments that everyone uses for a certified engine as the argument is from a manufacture's POV in regards to the trios amigos. (Attorney, Insurance & Liability) Your argument is for hull insurance not engine insurance issue from a manufacturer's POV.

[jrevens]

Here comes the defenders with that "insurance, layers and liability" argument.

Tell us, when is the last time you have seen any of those three amigo's come into effect with your personal aircraft life, much less your "Experimental Aircraft Experiences" ....

There's no reason to make this personal, Rik. Speaking only for myself, I'm not trying to be a defender or apologist for anyone... simply stating some facts as I see them. The "three amigo's"? I'll tell you when - when you purchase pretty much anything, including aircraft parts and insurance. I don't know how long you've been in this game, but I started building an airplane in the mid 1970's and in 1981 I purchased a brand new 160 hp Lycoming O-320 for $5140. Based on inflation alone that very same engine would cost less than $15,000 today. They're going for over $34,000 now. What else do you attribute that to? If you think that lawyers and the legal system aren't a major factor I think you're deceiving yourself.

I was never a fan of Rotax engines (I've changed my mind in recent years), but I stand by what I said. They have had a huge positive influence on the type of flying we're involved with on this forum. People complain about the price, but don't forget that $34,000 + new Lycoming versus a $19,000 new Rotax, which is much more complicated and expensive to manufacture. I am also a huge fan of people who try new engines. I don't think anyone likes spending more money than they need to, and finding a new, more powerful and cheaper alternative should be applauded, and I do!

[Rik]

Please do not take this as personal. The trios amigos are the Insurance, the liability and the attorney.. Not anyone on here.

These are the three things that everyone uses in a defense to why certified engines cost what they cost and act like no one is making a profit. We are naïve if we think no one but the attorneys are making a profit here as we see manufacturers enter an leave markets chasing profits.

The buyers vote with their dollars and the market reacts to the voting of the buyers. Simply look at what Edge has done. They were made aware of a sub $4K engine that they said, hey we can put our foo foo magic on and charge the same as we get now. There was ZERO attorney involved in that money grab nor was there any insurance company in there as we all know there is no warranty and even Jan from Viking has proved that getting the turnip is harder than getting the blood from it.

I am not knocking any of the engines out there nor the buyers choices for choosing them. Rather I feel the pink elephant in the room is the aircraft engine and everyone is in denial about why aircrafts cost what they cost and the cost of flying is what it is.

Not to push another forum, but on Home Built Aircraft forum, the decision to use an Audi Diesel engine on the experimental aircraft "Raptor" has been so vigorously bashed because the builder decided not to spend $100K on a certified engine for his aircraft and wants to sell his product with an Audi V6 Turbo Diesel instead as it is an economical and easily sourced engine for builders.

A certified aircraft that is selling for let's say $50K with an engine that is at 2/3rds TBO is only worth $50K even after the owner spends another $40K to rebuild the engine. So is the aircraft worth 10K or is the engine over priced????

It's time to have that talk about our addiction or our acceptance that aircraft engines are over priced.

[jiott]

What's the point of this repetitive foaming and ranting Rik? If you think you're going to convince many of us to install a cheaper conversion engine in our aircraft rather than a purpose designed aircraft engine your wasting your and our time. I may not like it but I will pay what I need to for the product I want and can afford. We are all able to make those choices without your help. By the way, I also applaud those who choose the conversion route even though its not for me.

[patrick.hvac]

Reliability, well we can see that Edge is trying to capitalize on the cheap engine and doing a paint job and an intake change and then adding a $30K price tag so that the consumer actually believes that they have made a difference as we all know that something that cost more is worth more because it cost more. Consumerism 101

Simply look at what Edge has done. They were made aware of a sub $4K engine that they said, hey we can put our foo foo magic on and charge the same as we get now. There was ZERO attorney involved in that money grab nor was there any insurance company in there as we all know there is no warranty and even Jan from Viking has proved that getting the turnip is harder than getting the blood from it.
.

That's twice you have dismissed Edge as snake oil sales. I think you need to take a look at the product they are providing before you slander the company. I am not speaking about the dollar amount because value is subjective but they are providing a well engineered product and their crate motors are not 'repainted foo foo magic' motors. That's a little unfair. Check out the 912STI twins on here or look at the build sheet for the EPEX.. Fully forged carillo internals and a bunch of custom gear.
You are entitled to your opinion of their work but your statements are simply untrue and misleading about the product.

You mention the Apex as being a sub-10k godsend. Most are installing FWF for a bit more than that.
Steve Henry has a realistic build list for the non-fabricator; https://www.wildwestaircraft.com/wp-...WF-Pricing.pdf
There are also a few highlander examples just becoming airworthy that are not sub 10k. I can help you locate their contact information if you like.

The Apex is a great motor but it has its challenges and unknowns. Rotax is a great motor with a great reputation. You cannot compare a redundant FADEC engine to a carb dinosaur either. Yes they are expensive but 'too expensive' is a projection of your personal circumstance and really means 'too expensive, FOR ME'. There are clearly plenty of customers who will pay for the reputation the same way as there are buyers for a 500$ Gucci t-shirt. Everyone has to make decisions that best suit them. I personally can't afford an EPEX 300 or a 915is, that doesn't make it a **** product.

I have attached a handy spreadsheet that may help someone weigh the costs and benefits of an Apex system.
Cheers,
Pat



IMG_3233.jpg

[ken nougaret]

What's the point of this repetitive foaming and ranting Rik? If you think you're going to convince many of us to install a cheaper conversion engine in our aircraft rather than a purpose designed aircraft engine your wasting your and our time. I may not like it but I will pay what I need to for the product I want and can afford. We are all able to make those choices without your help. By the way, I also applaud those who choose the conversion route even though its not for me.

Well said Jim.

[Rik]

What's the point of this repetitive foaming and ranting Rik? If you think you're going to convince many of us to install a cheaper conversion engine in our aircraft rather than a purpose designed aircraft engine your wasting your and our time. I may not like it but I will pay what I need to for the product I want and can afford. We are all able to make those choices without your help. By the way, I also applaud those who choose the conversion route even though its not for me.

For those challenged to get the point it is often necessary for repetitiveness.

I have never presented to say that you need to do as I say, in fact I have stated that I respect whatever decision one makes but if you have a personal gripe because I hold an opinion that differs from your own, well that says something about yourself not me.

If if you do not like that I merely presented facts about the current situation in aviation, well I do not have an answer simply because I don’t care if you accept that there are alternatives to certified aircraft engines.

Good of luck upon you to be able to afford whatever decisions that you make.

[Rik]

B

That's twice you have dismissed Edge as snake oil sales. I think you need to take a look at the product they are providing before you slander the company. I am not speaking about the dollar amount because value is subjective but they are providing a well engineered product and their crate motors are not 'repainted foo foo magic' motors. That's a little unfair. Check out the 912STI twins on here or look at the build sheet for the EPEX.. Fully forged carillo internals and a bunch of custom gear.
You are entitled to your opinion of their work but your statements are simply untrue and misleading about the product.

You mention the Apex as being a sub-10k godsend. Most are installing FWF for a bit more than that.
Steve Henry has a realistic build list for the non-fabricator; https://www.wildwestaircraft.com/wp-...WF-Pricing.pdf
There are also a few highlander examples just becoming airworthy that are not sub 10k. I can help you locate their contact information if you like.

The Apex is a great motor but it has its challenges and unknowns. Rotax is a great motor with a great reputation. You cannot compare a redundant FADEC engine to a carb dinosaur either. Yes they are expensive but 'too expensive' is a projection of your personal circumstance and really means 'too expensive, FOR ME'. There are clearly plenty of customers who will pay for the reputation the same way as there are buyers for a 500$ Gucci t-shirt. Everyone has to make decisions that best suit them. I personally can't afford an EPEX 300 or a 915is, that doesn't make it a **** product.

I have attached a handy spreadsheet that may help someone weigh the costs and benefits of an Apex system.
Cheers,
Pat



IMG_3233.jpg

Slander and snake oil. Or am I paraphrasing here?

Nice chart, however, it might be better to list the cost for the HP as we know the 912 is between 80 and 1?? Hp and the rotax starts at 150 hp stock and upwards from there.

As to that premium, well it seems that a lot of home builders figured they can take that profit and keep it within their own pockets as there are many people doing it alone. Nothing against Apex, but the $12.5 you listed on top of the shipping and customs issues that come along with the acquisition seems excessive for the current bottom of the market engine.

There is a buyer at every level, however it is a bell shaped curve and the premise behind the Apex as well as most non certified engines is lower cost not a boutique higher cost.