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Thread: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

  1. #1
    Senior Member Eric Page's Avatar
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    Default Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    Hi, everyone. I've been lurking here for awhile, but the time has finally arrived for my first post. I've been preparing to order a Kitfox from the factory, but while speaking to a neighbor last night about it, he told me about a "barn find" project that needs a new home. Here's what I know:

    • It's a Series 5 taildragger, so either a Safari or Outback, and probably with 1,550# MGW (not sure of its exact age, but roughly 20 years)
    • It might be a Speedster (the owner said he bought some Speedster options, but it may just be the airfoiled vertical stab)
    • Dual adjustable rudder pedals and toe brakes
    • Full Whelen light package (incandescent nav/beacon/landing and flash tube strobes, all still in the box)
    • Standard 6-pack of round dial instruments (unknown if they're installed in the panel)
    • No radios whatsoever
    • No parts for cabin vent or heat
    • No cargo bay liner or interior upholstery
    • Plumbing and wiring status unknown
    • Rotax 912 engine mount and cowling (shape unknown), but no engine or propeller
    • Wings were factory-built, and I presume they've been rigged to the fuselage, because...
    • Wings are covered and Poly-Brushed, ready for Poly-Spray
    • Unknown if fuselage is covered
    • Unknown if owner still has the full hardware kit, assembly manuals, build log, etc.
    • The project has been stored in a semi trailer for at least five years (owner is a retired trucker)
    • My neighbor (who has built many planes, mostly composite) says the owner's work was meticulous

    I would sell the lighting package and upgrade to LEDs.
    I'm OK that there's no engine, as I wouldn't want something that had been sitting for 20+ years.
    Same with radios, as they would be obsolete by now, and I would replace the instruments with an EFIS.

    So, here are my questions:

    1. What are the main differences between the Series 5 and Series 7? Anything really compelling?
    2. Do the current factory-supplied wing strut fairings fit the Series 5?
    3. A cursory internet search suggests that retrofitting cabane gear isn't complex or difficult. Is that accurate?
    4. Does the factory still support Series 5 builders with parts, upholstery, tech support, etc? Is there an ownership transfer fee to get support?
    5. Are there any concerns about Poly-Fiber fabric deterioration during storage since it wasn't completely finished (assuming no moisture)?
    6. Will I have to replace the Poly-Fiber chemicals due to shelf life expiration, or are they fine if still sealed?
    7. Assuming it has a Speedster wing, does the factory (or anyone else) still make wingtip extensions?

    I'm going to look at it tomorrow afternoon (it's an hour away), so I'll have answers to some of the unknowns when I get back. In the meantime, any suggestions for specific things I should look for/at would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    There are a number of people who have built or restored KF’s on this site who live in WA, perhaps one of them can accompany you to inspect the potential project this weekend. On the other hand it is Father’s Day weekend and they might have other plans this weekend.
    Michael Meyers
    KF IV
    Las Vegas, NV

  3. #3
    Senior Member jmodguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    I just completed a Series 5 and can tell you that the 5, 6, and 7 share many similarities. Trent Palmers Bird is a Series 5 also. The cabane gear and Grove gear will bolt up and the fairing covers will work. Cowls and firewall fwd will also work. Seat pan will fit and you can still get a baggage sack for a 5.
    The one item you need to check is the wall thickness of the wing spars. If they are .050, the gw is 1400 lbs. If they are .063 the gw is 1550.
    If you do buy this, you may want to consider buying the S7 elevator. It has a deeper chord (@3”). The other item is the reinforcing plate at the tailwheel if the fuse is not covered yet.
    Jeff
    KF 5
    340KF

  4. #4
    Administrator DesertFox4's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    All the PolyFiber chemicals are way beyond use. No value.
    Also I wouldn't cover my new aircraft with 20 year old fabric.


    DesertFox4
    Admin.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Eric Page's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    Thanks to all who replied. Much appreciated!

    It turns out the plane already has cabane gear; apparently it was an option at the time. The fuselage is powder coated flat black, which is how I would have ordered it. I didn't measure the spar tubes, but the owner confirmed that it's an older kit with a 1,400# gross weight. He has the PVC wing strut fairings. Those and the airfoiled tail were the Speedster parts he bought; it's otherwise stock, with the standard length wing. There are no Poly-Fiber chemicals left (he purchased as needed), so shelf life isn't a concern.

    The bottom and sides of the fuselage are covered, but he left the top open for access to install cables, wiring, etc.

    Since the wings were factory built, I probably wouldn't strip them just to inspect, but the fabric work is spotty in places. There are wrinkles and bubbles in the tapes, and some unglued edges on the fuselage and wings (maybe these just get trimmed off?).

    He applied the Poly-Brush with a pretty heavy hand; there are runs pretty much everywhere, many of them on the inside. It looks like it was painted on everywhere, not just over the tapes (perhaps this is right; I have no experience covering airplanes).

    The cabane fabric and underside of the fuselage were painted with silver UV blocker, but nowhere else (he said someone gave him some leftover from their project and he "wanted to use it up"). Given that he hadn't applied Poly-Spray anywhere else, I have to assume there's none under the UV blocker. It was clearly applied with a brush, as there are brush marks visible. It's going to need some sanding and a re-spray to look good for paint.

    There's a bit of trailer rash in a few places. The fabric has a few small tears along the leading edge tube at the base of the vertical stab, and there's a patch of fabric that appears to be missing on a leading edge corner of one of the elevators. It was up on a shelf, so difficult to see its exact condition; I couldn't get closer than about five feet from it.

    Door windows are installed, and the protective film has been removed. They're quite dirty, and I wouldn't be surprised to find scratches when they're cleaned, so I can probably count on replacing them. The windshield is not installed and the film is mostly intact except around the edges. I didn't see the turtledeck, but he says it's there. The cowling halves are both present (radial-bump style) and no fitting has been done. Wingtips are present, also not fit or trimmed.

    The firewall is in place, as are the sticks, pedals, control linkages, seat pan, seat belts, brakes, brake lines and landing gear. The tail is built with the trim motor installed and wire routed to the switch. There are wires in the wings for lights. Apart from those items, and the covering, pretty much everything else is left to be done. The owner said all remaining hardware is present and organized, and he's including all airplane-specific tools, drill bits, reamers, etc.

    It was pretty difficult to take usable photos since the plane was stored in an unlit semi trailer. A lot of the owners personal items were stacked between the doors and the plane, so light was poor for an iPhone camera. I could inspect with a flashlight, but I only got a few photos to show the general workmanship.

    So with regard to condition, it's not as pretty as I would prefer, but worst case I just strip it, clean the bones and re-cover. I wouldn't be the first 2nd owner to do that, but it would negate a bit of the time and cost savings.

    Here's where it gets interesting... He lost the original Series 5 assembly manual from SkyStar in a move, but got a replacement from John at Kitfox. The only one John could provide was a Series 7 manual, but he said there are only minor differences. That doesn't worry me too much; I can always ask questions here or call Kitfox for help. Here's the rub: he took notes in the original assembly manual as he went along, intending to present that to the airworthiness inspector as his builder's log. With the manual lost, he has no log for his progress so far.

    Finally, he claims to have about $25k invested and he wants $20k for the project. Given that my notional order sheet, with options, totals >$48k, this is a good opportunity to enforce some much-needed fiscal discipline on myself, and preserve capital for the panel and firewall forward.

    Here are my remaining questions:
    1. Does the factory still support Series 5 builders with parts, upholstery, tech support, etc? Is there an ownership transfer fee to get support?
    2. Are there any concerns about Poly-Fiber fabric deterioration during storage since it wasn't completely finished (it's been stored dry and in the dark)?
    3. Apart from the weight, is excessive Poly-Brush application a concern? Can runs be carefully sanded smooth and then Poly-Sprayed?
    4. Is the suspected absence of Poly-Spray under the UV blocker on the cabanes and fuselage bottom a concern? Would this argue for stripping and recovering the fuselage?
    5. Assuming that everything from the original kit is there, and given the condition as I've described it, does $20k sound anything like reasonable?
    6. Finally, How do I handle the missing builder's log? Can I document his progress at the time of sale with thorough photographs, have him sign an affidavit stating that he completed the work up to that point, then continue the build with a log of my own? Or, will I have to disassemble the plane and start over?

    Thanks!
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Dave S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    Eric,

    Many of your questions I could not answer without seeing the project; however, I would offer the following input.

    While photos are not real good for someone else to assess many things, the photos of the fuselage covering are sufficient, in my opinion, to think that the fuselage should be stripped and recovered. The misc damage, poor finishing and questions you have about what process was used in parts of the finishing would cause me to want to strip it and start over. Also, while it is an esthetic thing, the finishing of the shape of the end of the VS isn't too pretty and that cannot be fixed unless the fabric is removed - pretty easy to do with the fabric off.

    I cannot see enough of the wings in the photo to venture a guess on them.

    Since you mentioned you are not familiar with fabric covering but are considering building a fabric covered aircraft, by all means - get the Poly fiber book titled "How to cover an aircraft" if you are going to use their system. Really straight forward, practical and would solve a ton of questions you have and it is essential to using their products.

    On the lack of documentation, I would go to, call up, the horse's mouth (your faa MIDO {Manufacturing Inspection District Office}) and ask them since they are to ones having the final call on the airworthiness of the aircraft anyway. I found our office very helpful and they do have work arounds for unique situations.

    I have three friends who built S5s and they all really, really like them.
    Dave S
    Kitfox 7 Trigear (Flying since 2009)
    912ULS Warp Drive

    St Paul, MN

  7. #7
    Senior Member Eric Page's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    Thanks, Dave.

    Your concerns about the fuselage covering process, and the shape of the vertical stab end, echo my own. I think it’s probably a write-off and will have to be redone. I strongly suspect that I’ll find similar conditions on the wings and control surfaces. Since I couldn’t inspect them due to the place and manner they were stored, it’s a bit of a crap shoot.

    i posted the builder’s log question on the EAA forum and got a reply from a DAR saying it’s not a big deal and my proposal to have the owner sign a statement about the work he’s done would be sufficient. I’ll definitely confirm with the MIDO, in case my DAR got up on the wrong side of the bed on inspection day.

    Thanks again!

  8. #8
    Senior Member bbs428's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    I would strip it and go over everything from page one until your satisfied that it was done correctly or you do it to your satisfaction. It will be more work, trust me but the savings over a new kit might be substantial. Check for corrosion everywhere.

    I purchased a older 5 outback kit. It was not as far along this one. I removed what was done and had no choice but to redo most of the control system for my own peace of mind. Also had to do a lot of corrosion control as some of the powder coat was compromised and rust had wicked up and under it in places. My factory built wings were in good shape after 20 years in a barn. Aluminum spars just needed to be cleaned of critters and alodined. Hysol glue joints were still very good.

    All the best. Nice find!
    Somebody said that carrier pilots were the best in the world, and they must be or there wouldn't be any of them left alive. — Ernie Pyle

    Brett Butler
    Flying: 1998 Model 5 Outback, 912ul Zipper 110hp, G3x avionics, ss7 upgrades

  9. #9
    Senior Member PapuaPilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    I would also lean towards taking the fabric off the fuselage and redoing it. Drips and runs are almost impossible to correct and tend to show through the finished job. While the fabric is off you should go through everything. Like others said there could be poor workmanship, corrosion, etc. That was the case on my model 5 Outback, I found several things that needed to be redone on mine including misaligned control pivots, tight rudder pedals, corrosion, too tight bolts, etc. IMO I would offer a little less than 20K due to the damage and unknowns.

    Are you going to be happy with the 1400# gross weight? If you go with a Rotax it shouldn't be a problem. I have a 1550 GW Model 5 with a Continental IO-240 and have a UL of 657# and ~500# with full fuel. I wouldn't be happy with a ~500# UL, which leaves only ~350# with full fuel.

    FYI you can download a free copy of the Poly Fiber manual. I believe it is on their website.

    The factory should be able to supply almost everything on the model 5. Get the larger elevator.

    If you get the plane there are plenty of us that have built the Model 5. I have a complete manual and would be happy to give you copies of any pages you need.

    It's a good idea to get a statement from the seller. Other than that you will need to document all of your work using photos, dates/signatures in the build manual, etc.
    Phil Nelson
    A&P-IA, Maintenance Instructor
    KF 5 Outback, Cont. IO-240
    Flying since 2016

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Need help evaluating a barn find Kitfox Series 5

    Just to be clear, runs on the inside of the fuselage from poly brush aren't really that bad of a thing. That shows that the fabric was saturated and the poly brush is locked to the fabric. Very dry on the inside would be worse then runs. Runs on the outside are a different story, poly brush doesn't sand well at all. May have some success flattening them with an iron over a plastic sheet. The poly brush will melt and spread out somewhat. Once everything cools, the plastic should pop off. Also, you mentioned poly spray and UV blocker as if they are different things. The poly spray is the UV blocker. JImChuk

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