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Thread: Project 5 build thread

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    I was struggling with that until I spoke to an IA friend of mine the other day. He builds a lot of ultralight/light sport planes. He said "big chunk of PVC pipe, cap on both ends and shake.

    Duh. Wish I thought of that. To get the timing right, thorough rinse etc I will have my son help me. Do the etch and rinse on all the pieces, then rinse out the PVC really well, then move to Alodine - and dare I say "rinse, repeat".

    Before that idea came along I was going to modify the crate that my spars are in with a big plastic sheet and make a tub out of it. The PVC will produce a more uniform product.

    If you're going to do the outside by hand dipping then you could use the tennis ball trick just like you'd have to do with primer for the inside.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  2. #62
    Senior Member Dave S's Avatar
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    for doing the inside alone - Tennis ball in one end - liquid of choice poured in - tennis ball in the other end - slosh - empty - repeat as necessary

    TBs are the perfect size to plug and seal the end of the spar tube

    Sealing up the ends of the tube minimizes
    Dave S
    Kitfox 7 Trigear (Flying since 2009)
    912ULS Warp Drive

    St Paul, MN

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    I like the tennis ball trick.

    I'll have to figure out something else on the wings since they are quickbuild. Can't really dunk the spars with the ribs on. Maybe alodine on the inside and epoxy on the outside.

  4. #64
    Senior Member efwd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    Have something to catch the spillage. Tennis ball fur will allow some to leak past as it becomes saturated. Thankfully I covered my epoxy floor with plastic.
    Eddie Forward
    Flying
    SS7, 912iS, Garmin G3X

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    In order to feel like I did anything I decided to leap ahead by assembling the tail surfaces. I figure a dry run to see how things actually go together, put my eyes and hands on the hardware and check for interferences as far ahead as possible is a good thing.

    I got the elevator and horizontal stabilizer roughly in place and realized the struts for the horizontal stab were at the airport. I made the short trip over to gather those and a few other things like the shrouds for the center console and the trim around the doors. I have two sets of tail struts including one original round bar style and the aero tubing type too. I couldn't help but noticing (just like the wing lift struts) that the aero type are much heavier.
    So when I got home I weighed both sets.
    IMG_20200901_182105.jpg
    IMG_20200901_182230.jpg
    That's 2 lbs 10 oz vs 1 lb 3.2 oz for the pair of them. Less than half as much. Can anyone convince me that the aero struts provide any increase in cruise speed, improved handling, increased safety or any other reason besides "they look better"?

    For my dry run I installed the tube type and everything went pretty much together. Aligning all the hinges between the stab and elevator took some careful messing around to get all the hardware in place. There was a post recently regarding two tabs in the very aft end of the opening for the horizontal stabilizer, warning that the tabs could interfere with the operation of the elevator/stab during trim operations. I was watching for that today and planned on addressing it, but I have no interference with these tabs over for any combination of stab trim/elevator position by at least 1/4".

    I plan on leaping all the way forward to the rigging chapters just so I can see how it goes and make a dry run to, again, check for interference, make sure the hardware is present and understand everything.

    I loose fit the stab trim jack screw but need to crawl under there and do some measuring for the washers.
    IMG_20200901_194750.jpg
    Speaking of washers, I then moved to the front of the plane where I did a more complete job of installing the brake master cylinders than I did last time. I called it for the night when I realized it was time to get out the calipers and note pad to plan my washer stack up to shim everything in alignment. I'm probably going to use the super glue trick, which I thought was cheating when I first read it but now see that it will save much tedium.
    IMG_20200901_195753.jpg
    The pieces for the center console are just set in place. Not only did I want to see how they looked but because I'm not exactly long on extra space in these digs. I'd give a kidney for a 3 car garage right now. The original builder and I must be on some common wavelength because my plan to use the countersunk washers is coming together nicely. He had already dimpled these pieces where they are common to the inner floor board attach screws. I'm planning on more of these, along with dimpled washers and countersunk screws to hold the center console in place:
    4972-5-62c.jpg
    By the way the pair of console pieces weigh 10 ounces. After I get them installed I will mark and trim the upper edge parallel to wherever the center console is when it is clamped down. I'll need to match drill those pieces to the center console piece and install that hardware.
    I recall when I first looked at this design I wondered why the sidewalls don't tuck under the console top. I think I get it now. Way easier access later on.

    And, straight crazy talk here, I'm planning on using these instead of washers and nuts for the underside of the rudder pedal bracket hardware:
    IMG_20200829_122851.jpg
    These are Clickbond floating nutplates which are bonded on with structural adhesive. These will enable me to remove the rudder pedal assemblies after the plane is built, like it was no big deal. Being floaters they allow the shear loading to be taken up by the hole in the structure, and the axial load is all in compression and doesn't depend on the structural adhesive for anything but fastener torque, which is pretty low here.
    The rubber thing in the middle of each one serves as a tool to align the fastener with the hole in the part, serve as the clamping force, and to keep the adhesive out of the way. When the cure is complete you pull the thing the rest of the way through and throw it away.
    Last edited by alexM; 09-01-2020 at 09:17 PM.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  6. #66
    Senior Member bbs428's Avatar
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    I alodined my spars as well. I had no tennis balls or pvc caps so I just duct-taped some plastic over the ends and sloshed the solution around holding the wing over my head. Flipped it around a few times as well. Was a good workout! Lol. Nice, light weight coating. Wiped the alodine over the outside of the spar with a rag. Not as good a result as totally immersing the part but acceptable.

    Clickbond floating nutplates are the bomb. Could have used this nugget of info early on. I used riveted floating nutplates from Spruce. Worked well.

    Bummer the tubing is heavier but the aerodynamic drag will be a lot lower. Go with Beringer wheels, brakes and an NR prop and you'll more than offset the weight.
    Somebody said that carrier pilots were the best in the world, and they must be or there wouldn't be any of them left alive. — Ernie Pyle

    Brett Butler
    Flying: 1998 Model 5 Outback, 912ul Zipper 110hp, G3x avionics, ss7 upgrades

  7. #67
    Senior Member jiott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    I put plastic fairings (from Quad City Challenger) over my horizontal struts and gained at least one, maybe 2 mph in cruise. I think the plastic slip-on fairings are much lighter and much cheaper than the all metal struts.
    Jim Ott
    Portland, OR
    Kitfox SS7 flying
    Rotax 912ULS

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    Thank you. I guess 2mph goes on the balance sheet along with the 1 lb 7 oz it would cost me to install them. For sure if my plane ends up needing weight in the tail to balance I would rather install a functional part instead of a chunk of lead.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    Boy it's an amazing difference when the plane is right there in your garage and your flyable plane is down for annual. Last night I measured the horizontal stabilizer relative to the vertical fin and adjusted the struts per the manual. Got it perfect on my second try. The tail structure is actually quite rigid when everything is in place.

    Next I moved to the front of the plane and removed the rudder pedal assemblies, master cylinders and floor boards so I could install the Clickbond floating nutplates. I got down to bare metal per the manufacturer directions and went through the mental process of how it was all going to go but I packed it in for the night before mixing any adhesive. I knew the metal wasn't perfectly free of primer and wanted to get a fresh look before adding stress.

    I wanted to test mount the rudder but I could see that was going to take some patience so I put tools away and cleaned up.

    When I was done with work today I slipped out into the garage and got to work. I spent about an hour with my Dremel tool making sure the metal was bare. I was thinking of Bryan Bowen's video where his Dremel caught fire and I was honestly worried that mine was about to do the same. When everything was bare and perfect I cleaned everything with denatured alcohol. I mixed the adhesive and then took one more single pass wipe on all the surfaces to be bonded, then got to work gluing the nutplates in the holes. It went pretty smoothly with the rubbery one-use tool holding them centered and tightly in place. I had time to orient them squarely from the underside and noted that there was squeeze out everwhere but no mess. What are the chances?
    IMG_20200903_181144.jpg
    IMG_20200903_181205.jpg
    You can see where I'll have to come back with the epoxy primer and touch up the bare metal. I had a comment on facebook about them debonding in service at an airline. The rudder pedals will undoubtedly go in and out of the plane a number of times before I cover them up so I can always change my mind and go to riveted ones.
    IMG_20200903_185349.jpg
    Another shot of the floating nutplates, washers and machine screws I'm using for floor board attachment. I owe a thank you to whoever suggested Tinnerman nuts in someone else's build thread. This is just a slightly overboard version of the same idea.

    Once the adhesive was curing I moved to the back of the plane and set about installing and adjusting the rudder. One challenge I'll have is that my rudder is already built, and the ribs that were in the vertical fin were removed (and damaged) by the previous owner.
    In order for me to get the ribs in the rudder and vertical fin to match with any continuity I will need to have the rudder mounted while I fit the ribs in the fin.
    IMG_20200903_205223.jpg
    Funny story here. I remember the first time I looked over the rudder I was kind of crabby at how big the access holes were for the hinge hardware. Holy smokes, that is going to take some patience and some practice picking AN3-7A bolts up off the floor when there's covering on. I'm already picturing a home made tool that will make the job easier.

    Anyway the other challenge is that I can't produce the dimensions called for in the book because the fairing is already bonded onto the rudder and my best guess is that it's about 0.2" from where book says. I'm going to dry fit the fiberglass piece for the vertical fin and see what it takes to get a uniform gap.

    I'm pretty sure I want to go with a COM antenna in the vertical fin, my GPS bump under the turtle deck like I've seen on this forum and my ELT inside the tailcone. My transponder antenna will be the only penetration, which will be on the bottom in the factory location. Right now my plan is LED strobe/position lights on the wingtips with white to the rear, and no wires or bulbs headed to the tail (except the stab trim actuator of course).
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Project 5 build thread

    A couple of nights ago I diagrammed out the stacks of washers needed to center my master cylinders, then cleaned the washers with acetone and tiny drops of super glue to make thick stacks. It was a pretty easy way to get them all in place. I touched up the bare metal at the edges of my Clickbond fasteners with two part primer and decided to skip the color coat touch up until another day.

    Last night I had cut the nylon tubes for the rudder cables guides and finished the ends so they were all nice and smooth. It took quite a while because I don't know what the right tool for cutting the nylon tubing is. I didn't want to cut it with any type of shears because I thought it would crush the tube flat. I tried a straight cut hacksaw type edge on a multi-tool (real slow going, admittedly with a tired blade) and also a small cut off wheel on my Dremel. That was barely any faster and the material tended to melt back together after you cut it. It's some damn tough material. I stuck it out and got the parts made, and yes I still need to make a couple more.

    IMG_20200908_165454.jpg
    I didn't take a picture, but this evening I spent time clearing the old adhesive out of the steel portions of the fuselage where the nylon tubes go. I chased a few of them out by just using a 5/16" drill bit chucked up in a pin vise, but as I got closer to the tail they got harder and the drill bit would get stuck. So I grabbed my Dremel and a small diamond grit tool a lot smaller than 5/16 and worked away with a mirror, a light and frequent checks with a scrap of tube until they would all barely slide through.

    I did not bond them tonight. I'm wising up and keeping a list of things that need Hysol on them, because it seems like you always use what you mix and then later think of somewhere you could have used an extra glob.

    I made a trip to the hangar today to get some more of the pieces from the various tubs and boxes my project came in. On the short list were the aluminum lids that go on the compartments under the seat and the baggage compartment sack.
    IMG_20200908_201712.jpg
    IMG_20200908_205658.jpg
    I'm super glad I brought home the baggage sack and test fit it because it allowed me to see a conflict between my seat attach hardware where it wraps around the horizontal tubes and the very forward edge of the baggage sack where it likewise wraps around the same tube. Not a big deal and the solution is obviously some tailoring of the baggage sack to allow for the seat clamps.
    IMG_20200908_201542.jpg
    I now know exactly which item in my pile of parts is the floor of the baggage compartment. I remember originally thinking it was a floor board for the main cabin but that ship has sailed and the big piece didn't go along. Next trip to the hangar I guess and then I'll get to figure out how it is mounted.

    My head is churning forward to the step where I drill and attach the thin aluminum sides of the center console to the top piece. In fitting the floor boards I referred to the manual and found that the sidewalls don't sit on top of the floor (the way they show in image showing the seat tray covers), they tuck under the floor boards. I had been fooled by the work of the original builder who countersunk the holes on those holes common to the floor boards. I thought it looked okay that way, and certainly easiest if you need to mess with something in the center console. But they sure look more finished with them tucked under the floor boards.
    IMG_20200908_205256.jpg
    I need to trim the very back corner of the thin aluminum sides where it is binding up under pressure of the floor board and seat tube, causing it to bow outward.

    I also got my rudder cables and seat belts from the hangar. The holes for the shoulder belt attach points are not drilled, so I know there's more primer touch up in my near future.
    Last edited by alexM; 09-08-2020 at 11:54 PM.
    Kitfox 5 (under construction)
    Commercial SE/ME, CFII

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