Project 5 build thread

[alexM]

Alex, the switch you want is the S700-1-8. It's a SPDT ON-NONE-(ON). Just wire ground to the center common contact, ignore the maintained ON contact (that will be your OFF) and use the momentary (ON) contact to energize the starter relay. The S700-1-8 will look and function identically to a SPST OFF-(ON).

Depending on how your ignition and starter are wired, you might consider the S700-2-51. It's a progressive transfer DPDT OFF-ON-(ON) switch. That means that in the ON position, the ignition is powered, and in the (ON) position, both ignition and starter are powered.

The S700-2-50 (SPDT OFF-ON-ON) performs a similar progressive function for battery and alternator (first ON for battery, second ON for battery and alternator).

Thank you. So a newb question but, electrically, how is NONE different from OFF? And to confirm, the terminals for ON are different from (ON) in your example of the S700-1-8, so I don't need to worry about ON meaning full time starter engagement?

Update to my earlier post, I found my push button S895 switch and installed it on my mock up. I also dragged out my space shuttle switch guards to get a real life visual of what those will be like.
PXL_20220220_222043258.jpg

[Eric Page]

Thank you. So a newb question but, electrically, how is NONE different from OFF? And to confirm, the terminals for ON are different from (ON) in your example of the S700-1-8, so I don't need to worry about ON meaning full time starter engagement?

OFF means there’s a toggle position with open contacts. NONE means that particular toggle position doesn’t exist (the toggle can’t stop in that position). Since the -1-8 is a double throw switch, there should be a center toggle position; since it’s missing, the switch function is ON-NONE-(ON).

Yes, there will be three terminals on the switch. The center will be common, one end will be ON (maintained) and the other end will be (ON) (momentary). You’ll ignore the ON terminal and treat the corresponding toggle position as OFF.

[alexM]

Thank you!

[alexM]

My order came from B&C yesterday. A fist full of switches, battery contactor, starter contactor with all the spidery stuff already soldered on them, a real S895 (more on that later) and Bob Nuckolls' book The AeroElectric Connection.

Last summer I bought a copy of Marc Ausman's book Aircraft Wiring Guide. I've read mixed reviews of that book but I read through it and thought it was good. Now keep in mind my engineering background is mechanical with a lot of manufacturing processes thrown in. I understand watts, voltage amps and resistance well enough to not start a fire or destroy a piece of equipment. Looking back now, that book was written for a person like me and it was less about the exact methods of aircraft wiring and more of a "you should sit down for this" type of overview.

Bob's book is, as Paul Harvey used to say, "the rest of the story". I just started reading it this morning and it is full of great information.

I couldn't help but play with the new switches I got. Eric's description of the S700-1-8 was great. You pass through two spring loaded positions to engage the starter. I used a step drill to blow out the holes for all the switch locations to 15/32" which is perfect. I did not drill the small holes which prevent the switches from rotating since this is just a mock up/test mule. To prevent me from losing the indexing washers I just flipped them over and installed them.

In my CAD model I have one of those red, flip up covers on the starter switch. They weren't on the B&C web site and my searches of Amazon finds items which don't have very good reviews (ie, they work backwards or they don't positively turn the switch OFF when you flip the cap down). So until I get my hands on a good example of a red switch cover I used another space shuttle switch guard.
PXL_20220226_155127782.jpg
PXL_20220226_155131973.jpg
I think it would be fine that way assuming everything is placarded well. The purpose of the red cover I was looking for isn't to catch attention under non-normal conditions, it is to prevent inadvertent use. It seems pretty well protected as shown.

PXL_20220226_183507229.jpg
Next, I pulled that switch assembly out and inserted the S895 that was in my order. The other switch I have sure seems like an S895 but it doesn't say that anywhere on it, and it has provisions for screw type ring terminals instead of the soldered connections for the S895. Frankly I would prefer the ring terminals but since I don't know what this other switch is I don't know what it is rated for. I know it's an unused 737 switch which I intercepted from a garbage can. If anything it seems more substantial than the S895, but I've got the real deal now so I have options.

I will have a sub panel with the throttle and mixture as others have done, so my intent is to put this panel in my plane now and see what the ergonomics are like with various configurations.

Show time
The Northwest Aviation Trade Show is this weekend at the Puyallup Fair grounds here in the PNW. I volunteered to work at the booth for the Cascade Warbirds, and because I'm there it seemed like a good time to buy stuff. I'm now the proud owner of a bag of 50 shiny new 1/8" Clecos and a set of WAT (Whelen) Blaze LED position/nav/strobe lights. The folks at the WAT booth answered all my questions and when I felt my wallet getting hot I asked to buy a pair. But they don't sell direct and told me to visit one of their reseller booths.
None of the resellers had a set of Blaze lights with them but Aircraft Spruce offered the lowest price and free shipping, so I can check those off my list.

The guy went to key in my order and asked my zip code. I told him and he said "are you Alex?". I'm starting to think I have problems.

The Blaze lights are very light and have replaceable lenses.

[Eric Page]

I know it's an unused 737 switch which I intercepted from a garbage can. If anything it seems more substantial than the S895, but I've got the real deal now so I have options.

Hard to say what it might be. There are at least 13 of them on the flight deck but they all have black plungers, and all but one don't use the deep, guard-type mounting ring. Might be used somewhere that's only maintenance-accessible.

...until I get my hands on a good example of a red switch cover...

Here are a few switch guards from reputable distributors. Check datasheet measurements for correct fitment with your switch.

CW Industries GT-4R

NTE Electronics 54-921

Bulgin TG1-RED

Honeywell 19PA217-NT

...a set of WAT (Whelen) Blaze LED position/nav/strobe lights.

Did the WAT rep say anything about the legality of these lights for night operations? I've seen varying opinions on whether E-AB aircraft have to use TSO'd lights to be in compliance. The mere presence of non-TSO'd versions of otherwise TSO'd lights suggests not, but the internet begs to differ. For example, the Blaze product listing on AS&S has this Q&A:

Q: Are the WAT Blaze LED lights approved for night flight?
A: No. These are not rated for night flight, daytime VFR only.

[alexM]

Hard to say what it might be. There are at least 13 of them on the flight deck but they all have black plungers, and all but one don't use the deep, guard-type mounting ring. Might be used somewhere that's only maintenance-accessible.


Here are a few switch guards from reputable distributors. Check datasheet measurements for correct fitment with your switch.

CW Industries GT-4R

NTE Electronics 54-921

Bulgin TG1-RED

Honeywell 19PA217-NT


Did the WAT rep say anything about the legality of these lights for night operations? I've seen varying opinions on whether E-AB aircraft have to use TSO'd lights to be in compliance. The mere presence of non-TSO'd versions of otherwise TSO'd lights suggests not, but the internet begs to differ. For example, the Blaze product listing on AS&S has this Q&A:

Eric,
Very helpful as always. The push button switch I have is black and was definitely on the center row of the P5 overhead. There used to be a lot of possible variations on the older planes.

Unless I'm mistaken every one of those switch guards you list work backward (I guess upside down would be more accurate). The orienting slot on the S700 switches points up (to ON). Those guards have the locating tab so that the red cover hinge would be on the bottom, and closing the guard would push the switch towards ON. If you're seeing that differently I'm all ears. Maybe I should get out my multimeter and verify how my switches work.

Lastly, and probably most important is the WAT light question. As it happens I volunteered both days at the trade show so i went back to the Whelen booth. The short version is just as you found out, the Blaze lights are not legal for night VFR. It isn't specifically about the TSO but it would be easy to make that assumption.

I think I had read some of the comments on the Spruce website a while ago and I made the (incorrect) assumption that none of the tip lights with the rear facing white light were legal for night flight. Like "nice try and very creative, but no". And that's not true either.

If you're in love with the WAT lights you can buy the Orion series, which are legal for night flight. They do have the rear oriented white light. And yes they are TSO'd, but as he explained it to me the TSO is about power consumption and brightness. They did test the Blaze series and they were almost compliant but didn't quite make it.

He said "Make no mistake, the Blaze lights are very bright - brighter than legacy incandescent systems. If you got stuck out a little later than you expected you could get home safely, but if you intend to fly at night you should get the Orion series".

I deal with TSO equipment as part of my day job. TSO doesn't mean better, anymore than Mil Spec means something is better. It's just a set of specifications, and proving your product meets those specifications costs money. Many manufacturers sell a given piece of equipment (COM radios come to mind) in both TSO and non-TSO form, and they are identical other than paperwork.

The Blaze lights are half the size of the Orion series. I have to fabricate the spot to fare them into my wing tips as it is, and the Blaze would require very little effort.

I looked to see if AeroLED was represented at the show, but I didn't see them there. Looking right now on Spruce's website it looks like lights from either Aero or WAT which are legal for night flight (whether TSO'd or not) is at least double what I paid for the Blaze lights.

So what am I going to do? I'm on the fence. I don't really intend to fly this plane at night. For cross country night work I strongly prefer an instrument flight plan and this plane will in no way be legal for IFR flight.

[jrevens]

I know that Whelen, and probably other big manufacturers, sell those types of wingtip light assemblies in both "night flight legal" models and those that are not - I have the Whelen ones that are not. I believe that an often overlooked factor is that the installation must provide the proper visibility angles behind the aircraft also. I've seen installations on homebuilts that used legal lights with the proper brightness, etc., but were mounted on the particular aircraft wingtips so that they didn't meet those visibility standards and hence were not technically night legal. At least that what I was led to believe. Like you Alex, I didn't intend to fly my Kitfox at night, but it's nice to have something in case you have to come in a little late sometime... I'd never do that of course.

[PapuaPilot]

I initially had a set of 3 in 1 non-TSO lights on my plane. Once I landed a few minutes after sunset and decided it would be prudent to upgrade them to TSOed lights. I got a set of AeroLED Pulsar NSP Experimental/TSO lights. They might be a little brighter than the previous set, but now I am "legal". I have flown a couple of times at night since then, but this is far from my normal mission of day VFR.

Like others said TSO = Approved / legal. They meet the requirements for night flight and ground operations. Remember that night officially starts & ends at civil twilight, not sunset. Approved position and anti collision lights are required for VFR flight at night (91.205), and they must be on to operate, park or move an aircraft from sunset to sunrise (91.209). There is no distinction for aircraft certification types here, which means the regs apply to all aircraft, including EAB. I think the gray area comes from the statement that approved lights are required for VFR night flight (91.205), but 91.209 only says the lights need to be on, without mention of them needing to be being approved.

As John mentioned, I have also seen EAB aircraft with the lights installed in such a way that they don't meet the visibility requirements.

[Delta Whisky]

Phil - I'm confused and request more info. As I read §91.205 it is written for standard certificated aircraft (see the title and §205). What did you mean by "There is no distinction for aircraft certification types here, which means the regs apply to all aircraft, including EAB."? Thanks, Darrel

BTW - this reminds me of a copy of a section of the FARs sent by an unnamed member of this forum just a couple of days ago. We should all be familiar with these passages:

FAA Regulation: Part I, Section 1 (a) - (d)

(a): No pilot or pilots, or person or persons acting on the direction or suggestion or supervision of a pilot or pilot may try, or attempt to try or make, or make attempt to try to comprehend or understand any or all, in whole or in part of the herein mentioned, Aviation Regulations, except as authorized by the administrator or an agent appointed by, or inspected by the Administrator.

(b): If a pilot, or group of associate pilots becomes aware of, or realized, or detects, or discovers, or finds that he or she, or they, are or have been beginning to understand the Aviation Regulations, they must immediately, within three (3) days notify, in writing, the Administrator.

(c): Upon receipt of the above-mentioned notice of impending comprehension, the Administrator shall immediately rewrite the Aviation Regulations in such a manner as to eliminate any further comprehension hazards.

(d): The Administrator may, at his or her discretion, require the offending pilot or pilots to attend remedial instruction in Aviation Regulations until such time that the pilot is too confused to be capable of understanding anything.

[Eric Page]

Unless I'm mistaken every one of those switch guards you list work backward (I guess upside down would be more accurate). The orienting slot on the S700 switches points up (to ON). Those guards have the locating tab so that the red cover hinge would be on the bottom, and closing the guard would push the switch towards ON. If you're seeing that differently I'm all ears. Maybe I should get out my multimeter and verify how my switches work.

Hmmm, I see your problem. The only idea I can come up with is to use the edge of a narrow file to add a new notch to the backing plate on the guard, 180 degrees out from the factory notch.

If you're in love with the WAT lights you can buy the Orion series, which are legal for night flight.

I can't really say that I'm in love with any of them, but I have the figure-out-how-to-attach-them-yourself fiberglass light mounting things for my wingtips, which are sized and shaped for the old Whelen incandescent tip lights. Since the Orions are a direct replacement for the old model -- and night "legal" -- I figured I'd just go that way and be done with it. I don't have big night flying plans either; I just want to be able to do it legally if I need or want to in the future.