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Thread: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

  1. #61
    Senior Member jrevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by 109JB View Post
    My Understanding is that it holds up pretty well as long as any spills are wiped up promptly. I gathered this information from a few sources. It seems that nowadays the model airplane crowd is also using latex paint on large size models powered by gasoline engines. I used to be into RC airplanes pretty heavily about an eon ago, but never used latex. The consensus there is that latex is gasoline proof except for the possibility of staining if gas is left on the painted surface. This is also what I have gathered from research about latex on full size airplanes too.

    On my Sonerai it was covered with polyfiber and topcoated with polytone. I found that with that airplane and also my Yellow Kitfox I sold last year that the polytone stains horribly. Both of those airplanes had what stains from bird droppings that I could not get out. The Yellow Kitfox also had gas stains due to bad gaskets on the fuel caps. The Sonerai, I wound up cleaning and then scuffing with scotchbrite, then putting an additional topcoat of gloss white latex. It came out great and has not stained. After painting with the latex, my mother passed and the airplane wound up in the hangar for another couple years and got covered with dirt, grime, and bird droppings again. When I finally brought it home to get flying again last year, I simply washed it with a hose and mild detergent and it looks as good as the day I sprayed it on. I will say though that where the latex is on the Sonerai it does not get fuel on it, but the bottom does get some oil and exhaust smut and that has cleaned up fine.

    Oratex will also stain, as some of us have found out. I think that a polyurethane paint is probably one of the few types that are very resistant to fuel and most other things. The PPG Durathane that I used on my first homebuilt was extremely "durable" and it really looked just as good after 28 years (and I expect it still does) as it did when I applied it. The latex intrigues me... I think I'd try it if I ever build again. Do you think that it is going to be heavier than the typical Poly-Tone job, for instance?
    John Evens
    Arvada, CO
    Kitfox SS7 N27JE
    EAA Lifetime
    Chap. 43 honorary Lifetime

  2. #62
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by jrevens View Post
    Oratex will also stain, as some of us have found out. I think that a polyurethane paint is probably one of the few types that are very resistant to fuel and most other things. The PPG Durathane that I used on my first homebuilt was extremely "durable" and it really looked just as good after 28 years (and I expect it still does) as it did when I applied it. The latex intrigues me... I think I'd try it if I ever build again. Do you think that it is going to be heavier than the typical Poly-Tone job, for instance?
    I will certainly find out about the weight. I have a 1 square foot piece of the fabric that I cut off of this airplane and saved when I started the rebuild that is obviously Polyfiber with polytone topcoat. I also have a test panel with the latex that is done through primer and just needs topcoat. Once I spray topcoat I'll cut a 1 square foot piece of the test panel and weigh them both. I can say though that the paint when thinned covers the fabric very thin but is doing a good job. I don't even think I have used a quart of paint and have done 2 cross coats on the fuselage. Just judging by how it is filling the weave so far I think I will probably need about 2 or 3 more cross coats before putting color on, so primer will be only around 1/2 gallon on the fuselage.

    According to the information at http://wienerdogaero.com test panels that he has done show that the latex comes out about the same weight as the Polyfiber.

    Here are the benefits I'm seeing so far with the latex.
    1. Cost. It doesn't get any less expensive than this.
    2. Non-toxic. Huge benefit here.
    3. Everything is brushed except color coats. This one is a somewhat minimal consideration but I don't have to hang plastic in the shop for as long.
    4. I can brush paint the jambs and a few internal spots where fabric will show.
    5. Looks. I was very pleased with even as-sprayed latex finish on my Sonerai, and the results Malcolm at wienerdogaero gets by buffing look amazing.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  3. #63
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Took a step backward today. While painting I noticed that the longerons had pulled in at one location from fabric tension. An Internet search revealed that at least on the model 4 and earlier the final shrink temp should be 300 deg. F, whereas I used the 350 stated in all of the fabric covering manuals. I have the build manual for the airplane but it did not have the fabric covering section otherwise I may have caught it in there. Anyway, I checked the rest of the airplane and only the one bay on top pulled in like this. All others were fine. So I had to pull the top fabric and peel the side fabric from the bay in question. Once I did that the tubes were once again straight. No damage, just a setback and a little fabric and tape to re-do. Worst part was cleaning all the glue to prep for re-attaching.

    20210218_174301.jpg

    These tubes are also the same location that incurred the trailering damage on my previous Kitfox, and I have seen many examples of damage in this area on various sites and forums. Most I've seen were trailering damage, but I remember at least a couple that were landing damage. It all adds up to this location being a weak link in the fuselage truss. I had thought about reinforcing this bay before covering and now wish I had welded in some tubes. Since there is still fabric everywhere except that last top panel, I couldn't weld now, or at least it would be problematic, so I decided to fabricate some diagonal reinforcements and install them with structural epoxy. Each end of the 3/8 x 0.035 cross tubes have a half section of 9/16 x 0.035 tube welded on to form a saddle over the longerons. As noted they were then installed with structural epoxy.

    20210218_225957.jpg

    Hopefully tomorrow I'll get the side pieces re-attached and a new piece of fabric on top with the tapes and hopefully at least one coat of the primer.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  4. #64
    Birdseyeview's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    You mentioned cleaning the glue off the fuselage tubes was a real pain. Have you tried rubbing the glue off with a rubber sanding disc dresser? If you're not familiar with these its a rubber bar about 1 1/2" square and comes in various lengths (see picture below). Its used to clean up belt sander belts that have caked up with residue. I got mine at a local hardware store that sells professional sanding tools. This works like a dream on excess Stewarts glue anywhere on the fabric and on fingers too. If the 3M glue you're using is anything like the Stewarts glue it should work great, just needs a little rubbing. By the way - I've painted my Kitfox with latex last winter per the weinerdog.aero method and I couldn't be happier with the results. I rolled my primer and top coats on with a nylon foam roller and never did use the new air compressor I bought. The final coats of black and white trimix my paint scheme came out glossier than polytone and I didn't actually need to spray anything. The yellow I used was not that glossy (more like polytone) but it turned out to be a great look anyway.

    IMG_8159.jpg
    Last edited by Birdseyeview; 02-19-2021 at 04:07 AM. Reason: add comment
    Larry Olson
    Kitfox Series 6 - 1st Flight Oct 2021
    Tri-gear, smooth cowl
    912 ULS

  5. #65
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Yep. Sanding disc eraser is what I used. It just was a pain getting it off everything, especially getting the loose top edge of the side fabric cleaned.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  6. #66
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Just noticed you are in Oregon, IL. Not too far from me in Morris, IL. We'll have to do a burger run together once we get our birds flapping their wings.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  7. #67
    Birdseyeview's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Yes on the get together somewhere down the road. I'm hoping to have first flight this summer. If you're ever in the Rockford area give me a shout. Its alway interesting to talk with other builders and to see what they're doing.
    Larry Olson
    Kitfox Series 6 - 1st Flight Oct 2021
    Tri-gear, smooth cowl
    912 ULS

  8. #68
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Hey Larry,. I'd be interested in seeing pictures of your paint if you can post some.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  9. #69
    Birdseyeview's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Here's pictures of my paint job as requested. These were taken this last fall. I still have the protective plastic film on the windscreen and doors. The paint scheme is a knock off of a classic design that you might recognize. The same pattern is on the wheel pants as well but I didn't use latex on the wheel pants.

    IMG_8027.jpgIMG_8025.jpg
    Larry Olson
    Kitfox Series 6 - 1st Flight Oct 2021
    Tri-gear, smooth cowl
    912 ULS

  10. #70
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: 109JB's Kitfox IV rebuild

    Had about 1-1/2 hours this morning and got the side fabric stuck back down and the new top fabric on. Heat shrunk everything and longerons still straight. Once primed you won't be able to see it. Glad I fixed this instead of having to look at it for years and years.

    20210219_090752.jpg
    20210219_095031.jpg
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

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