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Thread: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

  1. #11

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    Default Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    Quote Originally Posted by jrthomas View Post
    It's hard for me to believe that a model 4 with a 912ul could be that heavy. I'd find an A&P with some certified scales that weigh all three points at once, make sure to level it correctly, drain all the gas and weigh it again. Speedster's are heavier but not that much heavier. If it really is that heavy I'd start pulling unnecessary stuff out. One of my buddy's recently bought a model 4 with a tape deck. You said you were unfamiliar with the model 4. In my opinion it's the jewel of Kitfox line. Maybe not quite as refined as the later models but a great performer with its lighter weight. I believe a model 4 with a 912ul and the right prop is every bit the equal, performance wise, to a 100hp model 5 thru 7, at half the price on the used market. Put it on a diet if it really is that heavy and enjoy it. I still have my doubts.
    Thanks for the comments. I'm still waiting to hear back from the seller if the deal can be made official, but your words give me more hope that I won't end up regretting the decision. At this point I am open to any model IV and up but the used inventory is just non existent right now.

  2. #12
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    Cool Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    Quote Originally Posted by 109JB View Post
    Why would a speedster be heavier? They have shorter wings, and a few light plywood ribs in the tail surfaces but I would think they could/should be lighter than a long wing. Am I missing something?
    Speedsters have a radiator scoop, sometimes wheel pants, and ribs in the tail, both vertical and horizonal. Little things that add up. Grove gear adds weight. My model 4 has all the Speedster stuff but with the long wing. I built it as light as I could with basic panel, no transponder and a light weight Becker radio and it was still heavier than I had hoped. I don't have wheel pants but I do have a Grove gear and 22" Dessers. I first weighed mine with bathroom scales. I weighed it a second time with my A&P buddy's certified scales. The certified scales showed about 50 pounds heavier than the bathroom scales. My flying buddy also weighed his model 4 Speedster with the same certified scales and his plane also weighed a good bit more his data plate says. So I'm a little suspect of some of those super light weight model 4's. Either way I couldn't be more pleased with mine. Or, maybe the bathroom scales were right and those high priced certified scales wrong. Could be!

  3. #13
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    OK so you are saying that in general Speedsters are heavier, but only because of installed equipment that could be outfitted to any kitfox or omitted from any Speedster. I don't really think it's fair to use a blanket that "Speedsters are heavier" without noting that it is the options that do it. The grove gear is a popular option for long wing and speedster variants, as are just about all of the options you mentioned. Bottom line is that a comparably equipped long wing Kitfox should actually weigh more than a Speedster. If you don't take the installed options into account you are comparing apples to oranges.

    Most heavy airplanes aren't heavy because of the airplane but because of the full stack of radios, too much paint, full upholstery, heavy options, etc. If I were looking at buying an airplane that shows heavy on the W&B, I would be looking at it with a critical eye to see what can be changed to make it lighter. A heavy airplane can often be lightened up significantly just by removing unnecessary junk. What can't be easily changed is paint and airframe weight.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    I didn't realize I was being "unfair." Adding Speedster options add some weight, especially in the tail. I believe the few pounds of added weight are well worth the tradeoff for improved handling. I totally agree that excessive weight is mostly in the cabin. But things being equal, the extra stuff that makes a model 4 into a Speedster has got to weigh something. So the identical Kitfox with Speedster options will naturally weigh a little more, not a ton more but more just the same. All of us have seen planes with panels that look like a 747 panel. If the Kitfox we've been talking about really weighs 782 pounds, there's some excessive stuff in there that could go. I bought my model 4 unbuilt kit along with a vacuum pump and vacuum driven instruments. I removed the pump and never used the instruments. The weight just wasn't worth it. The lighter the better.

  5. #15
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    Quote Originally Posted by jrthomas View Post
    Let's do the math. Assuming you Kitfox 4 is 912 powered, 700 pounds would lean to the heavy side but it'll keep the math simple. So you and you wife's weight combined is 310 pounds and 25 gallons of gas comes to 150 pounds. That's 460 pounds total so you're still 40 pounds shy of 1200. I don't see a problem.
    Love the above statement. In fact, the baggage sack is limited to 40 lbs. so perfect.

    I have built two Model IV-1200s. The first one weighed 704 lbs. The second 675. Both had the speedster options, but the first also had full upholstery, carpet and covered kick-panels. On the second, I did all I could think of to save weight and it was modestly successful. My target weight was what my buddies IV weighed empty - 604 lbs, a full hundred pounds lighter than my first one. He always flew with his son - everywhere - and as his son grew, he went from probably a 70 lb. kid to a full grown man. Another thing I always thought of was the weight of the camping equipment 1.4 lbs for a +20 degree sleeping bag and my 6 lb. tent. One more thought on build weight. The original IVs came with the light weight uncertified fabric weighing 1.87 oz. per sq. yd. Most builders today, even those building the IVs and earlier are using the medium weight fabric - 2.79 oz. Not a lot of weight, but keep in mind, the heavier fabric will absorb more of the finishing liquids so will be several pounds heavier than the original design. To each his own on the safety factor, but again, there has never been an in-flight structural failure with any model Kitfox. My buddy liked the heavier fabric because his cat that loved crawling over his IV didn't do as much damage with the heavier covering. Recently someone posed something like recognizing that the grams added will turn into pounds - a good thing to keep in mind.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

  6. #16
    Senior Member HighWing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kitfox IV-1200 for Two

    Another thought on the Speedster options, Elevator trim. consists of an electric servo, the wiring needed and some welding and modification of the elevator to accommodate the trim tab. How much does it weigh?
    Who knows for sure, but I felt I needed it on both builds as the thought of trimming with the flaperons seemed in my simple mind a bit challenging - back in the day.
    Lowell Fitt
    Goodyear, AZ


    My You Tube Channel

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