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Thread: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

  1. #1

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    Default kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    Whats everyone's opinion - I purchased a Model 1 , I was told all Logs were complete- No A/W Cert. ,hasn't flown in 4 yrs - Was told it needed cleaned up and a little TLC.
    Logs are not complete N-Number was canceled last January- The guy I got it from never registered it. Can you re-register an experimental aircraft without the builder logs and still be able to do the condition inspection?
    What am I in for/ should I just part it out?

  2. #2

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    Ithaca, NY
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    Default Re: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    I am no expert but I will share what I experienced. I bought a model 2 that had been sitting for a few years. I have no experience with experimental aircraft so I didn't understand when I bought it that the lack of the A/C could be a show stopper. He couldn't find the builder log nor the airworthiness certificate. The FAA has no record of it either. I spoke with three different DARs and the FAA and decided that the only recourse I had was to strip it down and document my build. I need to demonstrate that it is 51% home built. I do love to fabricate so I am taking this opportunity to basically turn the model 2 into a model 4. I am also converting it into a nose gear (the horror!).

    There may be other ways to proceed (finding a totalled model 1 and get its A/C and registration for example although that seems like a bad idea). I wish you luck.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    Quote Originally Posted by LBL View Post
    Whats everyone's opinion - I purchased a Model 1 , I was told all Logs were complete- No A/W Cert. ,hasn't flown in 4 yrs - Was told it needed cleaned up and a little TLC.
    Logs are not complete N-Number was canceled last January- The guy I got it from never registered it. Can you re-register an experimental aircraft without the builder logs and still be able to do the condition inspection?
    What am I in for/ should I just part it out?
    You do not need logs to register. On a homebuilt or a productionn airplane the logs simply show the maintenance history of the airplane. On a production airplane they also record things like engine time, prop time, other component times, AD compliance, etc. All of these are very important on a production airplane and also affects the value of the airplane. On a homebuilt everything concerning airworthiness is based "on-condition" so times aren't as important, and AD's don't exist for homebuilts, so really the only things the logs need to show are the annual condition inspection and maintenance since the most recent annual condition inspection. The only other thing it does is show to a prospective buyer is a complete history that can increase value.

    As for not having an airworthiness certificate, you would have to get that from your local FSDO but likely need to be the registered owner to do that.

    In order to become the registered owner you have to have a verifiable ownership history back to the last registered owner. The easiest way to achieve this is to get the last registered owner to give you an FAA bill of sale showing it was "sold" to you. The ladies in the FAA aircraft registry are very helpful but they also must follow the rules and they are sticklers for those rules. You can call them and ask them what you need to do and they will tell you exactly what you need. Also there are countless websites that tell how to handle the registration of airplanes, like this one from AOPA:
    https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft...lling-aircraft
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  4. #4
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    As far as the condition inspection, only the original builder can apply for the repairman certificate that allows performing the condition inspection. If you aren't the original builder then you have to either have the original builder do it, or an A&P.

    Other than the condition inspection anyone can do all other maintenance on a homebuilt.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

  5. #5
    Senior Member Delta Whisky's Avatar
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    Default Re: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    Quote Originally Posted by LBL View Post
    Whats everyone's opinion - I purchased a Model 1 , I was told all Logs were complete- No A/W Cert. ,hasn't flown in 4 yrs - Was told it needed cleaned up and a little TLC.
    Logs are not complete N-Number was canceled last January- The guy I got it from never registered it. Can you re-register an experimental aircraft without the builder logs and still be able to do the condition inspection?
    What am I in for/ should I just part it out?
    LBL - I have a different take on your predicament. You will need an A/W cert (apply with FAA form 8130-6) and I don't know how you get one without a builder's log (must be available) and a signed statement (FAA form 8130.12) that you built the plane if you are to receive the repairman's certificate. (You might also need to supply a program letter.)

    Otherwise, per the EAA: "you will need to provide a bill of sale for each change in ownership from the kit manufacturer through the previous owner to yourself". You should be able to register it (FAA form 8050-1 and a bill of sale, FAA form 8050-2 or equivalent) but that isn't your biggest problem.

    I'd call the EAA (800-564-6322 for member services) with a plea for advice so that when you take your next step, a call to your local FSDO, you'll be prepared.

    If the logs, such as they are, have the necessary original entries and if it did fly legally with an A/W cert you'll probably be fine because Ok City will have a copy. But, I don't know how you get an airworthiness cert without it being registered. But, don't give up, there are lots of ways of getting things done in the labyrinth of the FAA.

    Good luck, let us know how you solve the issue so we will all know.

  6. #6
    Senior Member 109JB's Avatar
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    Default Re: kitfox model 1 Paper work issues

    The airplane flew 4 years ago per the OP. Unless it flew illegally, it had an airworthiness certificate and a duplicate must be obtained from the FAA. The local FSDO can issue a replacement airworthiness certificate to the registered owner. Therefore you will have to get the airplane registered to you first. To do that you need a FAA bill of sale. You do not need any logbooks at all for any of this. By logbooks I mean Maintenance records.

    If you go by the rules, since the airplane already had an airworthiness, you technically cannot get a new airworthiness certificate listing you as the builder, but people do it and it depends on the FAA inspector or the DAR if they will allow it. Technically no inspector or DAR should do this, but as I said, they do if you find the right guy. What I am describing here is going through the whole process as if you got a kit and built it yourself.
    John Brannen
    Morris, IL
    Sonerai IIL (Single Seat)
    Kitfox 3/4 1050 - Rotax 582 (Back Flying and sold)
    Kitfox IV 1050 - Rotax 582 (sold)
    Kitfox IV 1200 Speedster - Rotax 912 UL (project)
    Piper Twin Comanche (Sold)
    Glasair 1 FT (Waiting to start)

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