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Thread: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

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    Administrator DesertFox4's Avatar
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    Default No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.


    Video by FlightChops.


    I’m sure some members have seen this already and it sounds like airline pilots already live this.


    DMMS= Stall Speed (Clean Configuration) X 1.404.

    Example: 48 mph X 1.404 = DMMS of 67.392 mph.

    Low altitude, loss of speed scenarios = loss of good friends.😢


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    Senior Member Norm's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    Good info Steve. I have had a couple of motor outs on take off but had just finished training in a pusher type aircraft where my instructor had drilled into me push forward first then look at options. (pushers tend to balloon up on no power) Because of training both motor outs were non issues and ended safely for both me and the airplane.
    Norm
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    North of Calgary
    Flying SuperFox Model IV

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    Administrator DesertFox4's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    It can happen at any time anywhere to anyone Norm. Glad yours were successful too.

    I’ve experienced 4 loss of power on takeoff events in just under 3,000 total flight hours. Also with no injuries or even a scratch on the aircraft. Instant and correct reactions were critical to all 4 successful outcomes.

    Early training in my student pilot days from my CFI (Thank You Lyle) instilled the only useful action during these events. An instant realization of the loss of power with an immediate and deliberate HARD push on the controls to unload the wings and retain some forward airspeed. Land fairly straight ahead to remain out of a stall/spin scenario. On the way down or during rollout, with the fuselage, try to hit the smallest thing directly in front of you. I doubt any of my four events took longer than 10 to 15 seconds before I was on the ground and stopped. No time for any alternate action than described above including any “OMG is this really happening to me” time. Certainly no “ what should I do now” time. This has to be trained and engrained in the pilot before a loss of power scenario occurs or the natural instinct kicks in to PULL to keep from impacting the ground. I guarantee that this instinctual reaction is what killed two of my friends in their Kitfox a few years back when they lost power on takeoff.

    In an event such as these, the aircraft becomes your survival capsule and has no other value at that time. When all four events happened, I was not high or fast enough to analyze anything. No time to flip a switch or change fuel tanks or even look at the panel for any indications of trouble. Get it on the ground without stalling is the only mission.

    All four events were similar. An immediate reduction in power from wide open to idle power. No engine quit running but all failed to produce useable power to maintain flight. All four resulted from fuel delivery issues to the engine. All four events were in tried and proven aircraft and not during first test flights of a newly completed aircraft where you would and should expect an issue like this to arise.

    This video struck a chord as I’ve lost friends to this power loss on takeoff scenario that may have survived with this info and procedure instilled in them.

    Call me “still learning after 39 years of aviation.”👍


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    Senior Member aviator79's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    This is a great video. I teach my students many of the same things, including an aggressive push. I like the "light in the seat" criterion. I'll be teaching that going forward.
    --Brian
    Flying - S7SS

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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    Thanks Steve,
    Great video, thanks for posting! David

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    Senior Member Cherrybark's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    My initial instruction and the subsequent teaching I did as a CFI/Glider was with auto tow launches. Chop the top off something bit old Pontiac so the driver and passenger can see the glider, stretch out 1000' feet of rope, hook up the glider, give the appropriate signals, and you're off. Once the glider leaves the ground the stick is eased all the way back and held in your lap till the top of the tow. Real world rope brakes are a fact of life and instruction includes multiple simulated breaks with the instructor surprising the student by releasing the hook. You quickly learn the instant response of stick forward before you start working on the problem of whether to land straight ahead or do a 180. Top of a good tow might be 750' - 800'. A rope break in the 500' range makes for a tough decision. Slip for a straight ahead landing or turn and have any headwind become a headwind as you try and land back at the take off point. Fun times and the club charged $0.50 a flight.
    Carl Strange
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    I watched this the other day. Great video. I was never taught this in my training nor was there any emphasis on the need to make that push instinct and instant. It's something I want/need to work on for sure.

    Additionally, does anyone know with the G3X if you have any options/settings to add an indicator for something like this?
    912 IS
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    Keep it simple and just remember 45kts in a Kitfox as your min manoeuvring speed.

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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherrybark View Post
    My initial instruction and the subsequent teaching I did as a CFI/Glider was with auto tow launches.
    Started with gliders as well. Those 200ft, 180 turn rope break drills get the blood flowing.

    When I was doing my powered transition training, I had the tenancy to go nose down a bit too long for stall recovery, dive during landings, and fly level building up speed a bit too long during the go-arounds.

    The Cessna felt like a brick that could stall at any moment in the pattern to me, and I tended to over compensate by using the only power a glider pilot has - pushing the nose down.
    Building a Kitfox V Outback in NE Ohio

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    Senior Member PapuaPilot's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Do Overs! Defined Minimum Maneuvering Speed or D.M.M.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by tracstarr View Post
    Additionally, does anyone know with the G3X if you have any options/settings to add an indicator for something like this?
    It appears that there are 4 custom speeds that you can program on the G3X in the Aircraft Configuration page. The instructor in the video suggests marking 1.404 times your stall speed. This speed could be slightly different for various Kitfox models, but you could program the DMMS on the airspeed tape.

    Another option would be to use the AOA indicator as a reference for a safe maneuvering speed. The AOA will compensate for changes in aircraft weight and DA. When you setup the AOA Garmin suggests using 1.5 Vs as the speed when the AOA will first appears on the PFD. They also suggest having the approach target AOA at 1.3 Vs, which is the green dot. Awareness of being too slow could be as soon as the AOA appears on the PFD screen. Always keep the AOA in the green and well above the 1.3 Vs dot.
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    Phil Nelson
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    KF 5 Outback, Cont. IO-240
    Flying since 2016

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