What engine are you using?
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What engine are you using?
I’m planning for the 912is
Hi Joe! Since I rigged it... Let me ask a couple questions.😉. Where are you getting the 3/4? Got any pics? Do you still only have one wing installed? Is the #1 rib in place?
Sweep is only affected by the location of the holes drilled in the spars at the root of the Wing. The brackets/ rod ends are going to change dihedral and washout.
Brandon
Hey Brandon! I’ve attched pictures of each side. #1 rib is installed on both wings and both wings are installed when I took these measurements, the airframe was leveled using a 48 inch level front to back on the tubes above the cockpit and left to right on the #1 ribs as well as behind the cockpit. I have 1” block taped just inbound of the most outbound rib on each wing and the string is taped the the front of that block. For the sake of giving you more information. The measurement from my center rudder bolt to the 120” mark on my left wing is slightly over 1/4” in longer than the same measurement in the right wing. My dihedral is within 1/16 and my washout is 1/2” in on the right wing. And about 1/16-1/8 less than 1/2” on the left wing. Thanks!Attachment 21374Attachment 21375
Thanks Joe. Give me a call at the factory tomorrow and we can discuss a few things.
Thanks!
Brandon
Alright! Rigging is ok’ed...got the bubble doors trimmed and drilled, just waiting for latches and then paint. Jury struts are fit and ready to be positioned (once it warms up outside). Also been working on finishing my balsa tips, but I don’t have pictures. Tanks are also fit and going in this week.
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It’s fun to see it out in the backyard with the wings unfolded. We have been in and out of the garage a bunch lately with help from my girlfriend Devon.
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Hey Bob, Brandon and I reviewed how I was checking my rigging to make sure I hadn’t done something incorrectly which I had not. He then explained that adjustments to the lift strut rod ends would not change sweep and only change dihedral and washout, which were within the correct range already. He had calculated the sweep value based on my measurements and determined that I effectively have under a 10th of a percent sweep to the rear of the aircraft. He assured me this will not cause any handling issues and that I likely would not be able to notice the difference even flying aircraft back to back that had been rigged exactly by the book and like my own is rigged. So no adjustments were needed at this time.
As always I really appreciate the prompt way Brandon and Kitfox as a whole addressed my concerns.
Thanks for the response Joe. It's good to know that minor deviations in the measurements are not a reason for concern.
Bob
Ok, time for my morning onslaught of questions! About to commence cleaning my tanks but I noticed that one tank has a bit of a rock and doesn’t sit quite flush with the #3 cap strip. Also I noticed that on the other side the rivets won’t allow it to sit flat on the spar. Should I be making indents for the rivets and also what do I do about the tank not sitting flush with the cap strip. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...83d0112871.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...015393a801.jpg
Also for sloshing the tanks is there a reason to only use 3M green tape or can I use another more common tape?
I had the same situation with my tanks, Joe. Relieve (sand) the corner flanges as required to get the tank to sit flush with the cap strips. There's plenty of meat in that area. One of my tanks fit pretty flush but the other was high on 2 corners.
For sloshing I used other tape.
You can file that flange on the tank down to get it to sit flush. Obviously be careful and don’t leave any stress risers. Once your tanks are in and you still have a bit of unevenness, you can fair it with hysol.
Brandon always makes a point of telling people to pressure test after any filing or shaping of the tanks.
Yea thats why I want to get this all done first!
Still working on getting my tanks to sit flush and installing my jury struts. Im waiting on a good day to get it outside and unfold the wings. In the meantime Ive been thinking about paint and epoxy primer for the spars and other metal parts. I don't think my kit came with any primer, so how much do I need to do the spars, stringers, and assorted uncovered metal?
Also in the realm of painting/spraying I know NOTHING! Any and all advice is welcomed. Id like to start getting my setup ready so I can do things like paint the cockpit black before I cover and paint any unprotected metal as I go.
Thanks as always!
If I recall correctly, I ordered a quart of primer which wasn't enough. Then I ordered an additional gallon, and have probably only used about a quarter or a third of it. I would think a gallon should get you through the project pretty easily.
There are strong opinions about painting equipment. I did all of mine with a Harbor Frieght "professional" $60 HVLP spray gun. I know others have used their $15 spray gun with surprisingly good results. This is actually the gun that they used when I took Gary Hillman's EAA covering workshop. I also had a Harbor Frieght compressor that went Tango Uniform half way through spraying a color coat. So I spent a little more money on a 15 gallon 200 psi 5.4 CFM oil-free compressor, and it's worked well for the rest of the project. I think some will tell you this is totally inadequate, but for this project, I can tell you it worked for me. My paint has some flaws, but they definitely have nothing to do with my equipment. If you can take a covering class, you'll at least get to try your hand at spraying and see good/bad examples.
Also - take PPE seriously. All these chemicals, and especially catalyzed polyurethane paints can do some real damage to you. I used a quality, full face cartridge respirator with P100 particulate/organic vapor combo cartridges. You will read in the Poly Fiber manual, and hear from internet experts that an Air Purifying Respirator (APR) is totally insufficient and that you must use a supplied-air respirator. If you look into it, this isn't actually true. I won't go into a lengthy discussion of why I chose an APR instead of supplied air, but this might be worth a read. I work in a very safety conscious, hyper-regulated environment and I take my own health and safety very seriously. There's nothing wrong with using supplied air, but it's also not necessary if you use an APR correctly and change your cartridges very conservatively.
I used 1 qt. of epoxy primer but needed just a little more. I brushed it on rather than spray, so it takes less that way. I primed the spars inside and out, and all bare metal.
Having painted cars for 15 years I'd say that a full-face SA system is mandatory. Charcoal filters do nothing for poly-isocyanate fumes. You are also taking it in thru your skin and the worst entry point is your eyes. If you do use a charcoal respirator but leave it out, it continues to "purify" the air so make sure to keep it in an airtight container. Washing your hands or arms off with any kind of thinners or reducers is also very bad.
You might get away with it for a long time but once your isocyanate "cup is full" your done, you won't be able to come near any of these products again. I've seen it in person and it's not pretty. One guy I worked with that developed a sensitivity to isocyanates had to quit the business. Had been a bodyman/painter for 25+ years. We met him for lunch one day several months after, and he had an asthmatic type attack in the restaurant just from the smell on my clothes, and I always wore a full paint suit!
I agree that you need PPE beyond respiratory protection. Full coveralls with hood, and gloves. Don't come into contact with the paint, especially when it's a mist.
However, it's not accurate that charcoal filters are ineffective against polyisocyanates. Read the article I linked to above. OSHA and NIOSH both consider Air Purifying Respirators effective against Polyisocyantes if a cartridge change schedule is used. The article even points out that charcoal cartridges actually remain effective against isocyanates for a relatively long time. OSHA's previous "supplied air only" policy was not based on the effectiveness of filters, but on the supposedly poor warning properties, i.e. by the time you smell them, you're above the exposure limit.
Again, if supplied air makes you feel comfortable, go for it. Just know that there is a lot of incorrect or outdated information about APRs and isocyanates. Choosing an APR is not taking a gamble with your life and health, if you use it correctly. Any respirator must fit correctly, be stored correctly, and be used correctly. You must perform at least a negative pressure check every time you put it on.
The main problem being that most people don't fit the mask (simply don't know how to) properly, don't take proper care of it and don't adhere to a proper filter changing schedule. Hanging the respirator on a nail in the shop until the next time you paint is not going to cut it. If you bought the mask three months ago (even less actually) and it's been out in the air (even just sitting) the charcoal cartridges are done. If you have any facial hair you have leaks unless using a full-face FA mask. I just don't think it's worth it. Maybe OSHA did relax the regs and maybe they got a couple million dollar donation from 3M?
After Bone's the coworker got sick the owner of the shop brought in a chemical poisoning Dr. to go over our safety processes. The crap I learned & saw over those two days scared the shizit out of me, and I've worn a FA respirator since day one! Hell I even wore a charcoal respirator when mixing paint and the mixing room had an exhaust fan.
I can say this nobody made fun of my "full suit, head sock, gloves and FA system" any more after that.
And your "Any respirator must fit correctly, be stored correctly, and be used correctly.You must perform at least a negative pressure check every time you put it on." is spot on.
I also agree that folks should just use something and make sure it's working correctly, you only get one set of lungs.
hey guys thanks for the thoughtful responses the week got away from me (thankfully do to building!). I must say Im a bit daunted by aerothane and the like even though I will likely end up going that route (with an air system) if I think it's within my spraying ability. I'm signed up for the Polyfiber course in two weeks near ATL which I hope will educate me more on the painting process as well.
I had my EAA tech counselor Jim Wilson out this weekend and we talked alot about painting and we also got a chance to look order my build (he is the first qualified set of eyes to see it in person). I feel super lucky to have such a experienced and great person to advise me and look over my build. Jim approved of all my work so far! Really makes me feel much better, it's easy for me to continuously second guess my work with no previous experience or anything to compare it to in person.
I was holding for good weather to finish up the jury struts and get the tanks installed and as of last night both are complete. It took about 10 sloshes for each tank till I was happy with the lack of debris. I found that I would slosh and get a clear strainer, then would do one more for good measure and find big pieces of fiberglass, undoubtedly do to the last slosh maneuver, there are tons of places for things to get hung up in these tanks and Im positive no matter how many times one sloshes there is probably something still hung up in there in one of the corners. I also did some work on the wing tip mounting strips, got my balsa ends mostly contoured (still need to be covered in hysol), varnished the butt ribs, rudder, and inside ribs one and 3 prior to tank install. I also got around to working on my paint scheme. Open to feedback, this is just my first go, but I do like it! The wings would be one or the other pattern not both, just trying out ideas on one template. I'm certainly not a designer but I wanted something simple to paint, didn't need too many colors, had some white incorporated to blend with current white powder coated items, some black to blend with soon to be black cockpit tubes and interior, third color open to changes. I really would love your thoughts/ideas.
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To me, one of the unfortunate things about the Kitfox when coming up with a paint scheme, is that the natural line down the fuselage stringer does not meet with a good natural line forward of the door. I think that if you do a primary color above the line, and a secondary color below, too much of your cowl ends up in the secondary color, and the line seems like it's in an arbitrary location vertically. A lot of people paint them this way, and it doesn't look bad at all, but to my eye it looks not quite balanced somehow. The lighting bolt on my airplane does two things for me:
-Pays homage to Supercub N4101E, my first true love in aviation, which was traditional cub yellow with a black lightning bolt.
-Realigns the sight line with the bottom of the door and gives me more of my primary color on the cowls.
After that discussion of natural lines, I like the slanted version of your wing paint better, even though it follows no natural line on the plane. Go figure. :rolleyes: Crossing your scheme across the gap to your flaperons will take some careful planning to get correct alignnment, but 99% of the people who see your plane won't notice if the lines aren't perfectly continuous from wing to flaperon, especially since there is only one angle where they will align visually.
Obviously paint scheme is completely a matter of personal preference, but I just thought I'd throw stuff out there as food for thought.
Brian I really appreciate your thoughts. I think the point you made above is why the kitfox factory paint scheme dips and curves below the prop. That being said I kind of like the clean white look so maybe the cowl being mostly white wouldn't bother me. What will bother me is how dirty it will inevitably get, but maybe that will make me clean the plane more (read: take better care of her).
Wow! your really moving forward quickly. Nice work. I wish the weather here would give me a
nice window to get my wing position set. Hopefully soon!
My 2c worth...
I like the slanted tips as well. I would go with a slant up toward the vertical tail tip with
the black stripe so your primary color can carry on to the tail and be on a slant at the vertical tail tip as the rest.
Pardon my crude drawing... lol :p
Attachment 21459
Kind of like this?
Here's my paint scheme. It's similar with some curve at the nose and tail. I didn't do the blue strip yet.
Attachment 21478
Attachment 21479
Thanks for all the paint scheme suggestions! I still have some thinking to do! Phil its really nice to see your drawing and then what it turned out like! Looks great!
If you primed your spars did you prime before or after installing the leading edge extrusion?
Also what does everyone paint their fuel sight backer plate with? I assume white, would the white primer paint look ok/do the job?
And lastly, any suggestions for black paint for the cockpit tubing, I have a small spray gun I plan on doing it with? Hopefully cut my paint spraying teeth on the tubing where I imagine its not as noticeable if I screw up. I don't think I want to go full flat to prevent scratching but maybe a semigloss?
... ah one more. Can the flaperons be put on two saw horses? Or do they need to be supported in the middle? Not sure how longitudinally stiff these things are.
Prime the spars before Installing the leading edge.
I assume you have the fuel placards from Kitfox. They are white stickers that cover the sight gauge backing plates. I primed mine, but if you use the placard kit, you'll cover whatever you paint them with.
I did flat black and really prefer the look. Semigloss would be more durable.
The flaperons can be supported in two places for a short amount of time, but they are pretty delicate. If you accidentally lean on one that's only supported in two places, it might be done for. I used four saw horses with plywood on top, and some moving blankets.
If you want to lift the ailerons you need to keep the chord vertical. Don't lift them with them in the horizontal position unless you are grabbing it with both hands spread so it splits the load in thirds
Brian thanks! Super helpful as always! Sounds like Im priming tomorrow! I have a handful of stuff at this point so its good timing. Any tips on spraying poly fiber primer? or should simply brush?
Also drilled the rivet holes in trailing edge of flaperon, what's the convention for head vs shop side of the rivet up or down. I guess you will see both regardless... I may just have to order solid ones...
For my flaperons I used solid rivets and have the shop head up.
When swaging the pilot and copilot rudder cables together what position should the adjustable pedal lever be in vs the pedals themselves. It would seem since the position of the swage is fixed 62-63” that you would want the pedals and levers to correspond to the same poison as to not move the swage forward or aft later. And without the firewall I cannot know the forward most or aft most position of the pedals.
I positioned the pedals in neutral, even, straight across. The lever position I don't think matters much, maybe in a mid position. The main thing is you want to make sure the swage joints do not interfere with anything (cable guide tubes, etc.) thru their full range of travel in any pedal or lever position. I believe that 62"-63" puts them in a place where nothing is very close.
The manual says to put the levers in the middle position. Mostly, they need to be in the same position. The actual fore/aft positions will be set when you swage the aft cable eyes. You really need the firewall on for that. Make sure you are following the cable installation instructions in the adjustable pedal Appendix.
It's probably obvious, but a 1x4 or a level through the fuselage behind all 4 pedals will keep them aligned while you swage.
Still a bit apprehensive about swaging these cables. By the book 62-63 inches put the swage a right on top of this cross beam (see picture) it would seem to me that if it was to hook on something when using The rudder this would be a good spot to hook the cables.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4ad90d2e57.jpg
Mine ended up a couple inches forward from there. When there is tension in them, they won't catch that tube.
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Rudder cable tension is provided by the 2 or 4 springs that hook up at the pulleys under the center console.
Attachment 21621
Thanks Yes I have the springs in place. I went ahead and did it. And it came out fine. I was likely overthinking it and I understand that spring tension will keep them away from catching... but it is possible given their position so I wanted to make sure.
Thanks for all the help as always!
I got my flaperons installed today and the control horns clecoed. This was a pretty exciting step for me. Finally also have my last coat of hysol on the balsa tips!
I’ll start the wing ends tonight. I think I’m getting close to having the wings structurally complete. Poly fiber class in ATL next weekend.
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