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I still need float-rigging info
Sorry if this becomes redundant, but I haven't heard a word of response to a month-ago request for float-rigging info for my Zenair floats on a model IV. And I can't seem to get off a private message either. I know you float-fliers are out there, and I'm anxious to join the party. : )
Lynn Matteson
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Have you contacted Zenair? I can't imagine they wouldn't have info on how to mount their product.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
I haven't contacted them, as their literature says to contact the airplane mfgr., which will be one of the next steps on the list. But I figured that contacting people who have actually hung zenairs on a model IV would be the way to go, rather than the McBeans, who probably have their hands full with the newer models, etc. I was just contacted by a person who gave me Paul Seehafer's phone number, and I'll call Paul, but that might be an imposition, so I'll wait a bit and see if he answers the group, then maybe the phone call will be in order.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Call him. He's a friend of mine and I can tell you if there is anything he loves to do, it's talking about floats on a Kitfox!
(Be sure to first charge the battery on your phone and set aside a sizable block of time for the call.)
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Hi Lynn,
I can't help but respond after Larry's intro ;)
So first things first, what zenair floats are you trying to install? Floatation -Size (1150, 1200, 1300, etc), and are they a straight float or amphib? And what is your empty weight, engine type, prop, and your climb rate on wheels? That info will help to determine optimum step placement, and throat angle.
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Here is a You tube video on a Kitfox guy installing his floats this may help. I've never flown on floats so I am not sure if this is what you need. I finally watched the entire video, thank goodness he finally put on a shirt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9y9ct0MndA
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
You might try to track down Paul Liedl in Minnesota, he had floats on his
Series 5/IO-240B which were pretty similar to the Zenith floats ... I don't
have his contact info any more, however with the magic of Google you could
probably track him down. He might be on the Matronics list also ...
Jeff
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiott
Have you contacted Zenair? I can't imagine they wouldn't have info on how to mount their product.
I called them the other day, and they sent me a drawing of a Kitfox on Full Lotus floats...not really what I was looking for. I feel like they are hedging for legal reasons, and told them so, but they say it's more of the many variations of the Kitfox models that come into play.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Paul Z
Here is a You tube video on a Kitfox guy installing his floats this may help. I've never flown on floats so I am not sure if this is what you need. I finally watched the entire video, thank goodness he finally put on a shirt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9y9ct0MndA
That video is worse than useless for "rigging" a set of floats. It may be ok for installing them but rigging involves planning the position, measuring the location, cutting the various struts and spreader bars, etc. I haven't seen such shakey camera work since I was in film school. : )
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
Hi Lynn,
I can't help but respond after Larry's intro ;)
So first things first, what zenair floats are you trying to install?...Paul
I have the 1150A (amphib) floats, going on a 660 lb. Kitfox IV, with Jabiru 2200 engine (modified) with Prince P-tip prop (64 x 30) currently, and it climbs at 900-1200 fpm.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
That is a great climb with the Jab 2200 engine. Previously I would have tried to discourage a jab 2200 amphib as unfortunately I've never seen one work well on floats. But it sounds from your performance numbers that yours could be the exception. And frankly, I would love to see one done to prove it will work, as that is a really sweet motor imho. Oh, and you also picked a great set of amphibs for the model 4. So if we can get this rigging right you'll be hanging out with the seaplane crowd before you know it. :)
Give me 3 or 4 days to come up with some numbers for you. I'm pretty sure I can get you pretty close to where you need to be with the rigging. Plus I'll try to show you how to make your rigging adjustable if you need to make some minor changes later.
There could be a quite a bit of information by the time I get done. Would you like for me to email it to you, or would you prefer I post it here?
Paul S
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
That's great information coming from you, as I regard your opinion highly...from what I've seen here and in speaking to you personally....back in about 2005 or so at the seaplane base at Oshkosh.
You won't remember this, Paul, but I spoke with you about flying a short-wing Kitfox with a Jabiru 85 hp engine and you said that it would take a long-wing and probably 100 hp to get off the water succesfully. At that time, I was just building the plane, and pretty much gave up on the float idea back then.
By now, I've got 1595 hours on me and the plane, and have become bored with just flying around the patch (and around the country, from California to New York with this plane) and I needed a project to get my juices flowing again. I had just finished helping restore John Cuny's Republic Seabee....Grand Champion Seaplane this year....for the past 2 years, and I needed a project of my own. Over the past years of flying with the 2200 Jabiru, I have built tuned exhaust pipes for it, a large-plenum intake manifold with long tuned intake runners, and an Electroair ignition system. With all these mods, I got to thinking that maybe I might be getting close to that magic 100 hp that you said would be necessary for float operation. So that's the background behind this latest project of mine. It would be great to get the rigging such that it would be adjustable. My local mentor, Brian Vanwagnen, has already suggested that I do away with the "X" braces that Zenair supplies, which are cable, and I've started to make these from SS rod, 1/4" diameter. And I have built the floats using solid, driven rivets in place of the "pop" rivets that they provide.
Probably email would be the way to go, unless the moderators feel that your provided information would be of benefit to others, and in that case, posting here would be fine.
Lynn (lynnmatt@jps.net)
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Lynn and Paul, If you don't mind sharing, I think this would be good information to share openly with the Kitfox Community…
Please post any details here.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
I remember talking with you.
By chance have you ever done a thrust test on your plane? Just curious, as that is even more important than the actual horsepower for flying floats.
And I may have changed my opinion some about the short wing. A standard Just Highlander makes for a really good seaplane, yet the wing area is less than a standard Kitfox wing. So I'm thinking it is probably more equivalent to a Kitfox Speedster's wing area. If true, then the shorter Kitfox wing should work just fine. At least that's my current take on things right now :)
I'll try to post what I come up with here on the forum rather than an email since the group is interested.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Your take on the wing area is good news, as I haven't wanted to re-build the wings out to standard Kitfox size. I have the sawed-off (by a previous owner of the [then] unfinished plane) sections, but being as I have installed anchor nuts for mounting the wing tips, it would be a bummer to have to do that job over again.
I haven't done a thrust test, but I've often thought about it. Being a "numbers" kind of guy, I have often wondered what I was producing hp-wise, but never bought the pull tester that (for one) Valley Engineering sells. Maybe I will look into that, as I have got the floats just about as far as I can go with them, building-wise, and running out of things to do before it becomes time to strap on the skis...(for the plane, not for my feet). : )
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Lynn,
Don't go out and buy a tester on my account. I was just curious what the 2200 modified would do. I doubt you would have gone so far as to build a set of amphib floats if you didn't think they would work.
It's actually pretty simple; if you think your jabiru speedster will compare at all with a rotax speedster performance wise, it's probably going to work on floats similarly. So we just need to get those floats on to figure it out.
The biggest question I have about this is if your existing prop will have enough thrust being that it is so short? It would be interesting to talk with either jabiru or lonnie prince to see if you could run a longer prop. I've heard of guys with jabs running 64 and 68 inch props with success. But again, that's just my idea. Your existing prop might be just fine.
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
I don't know if you have spoken with or are aware of these people - Harbour Sport Aviation , I ran across their website last winter when searching the net for float options. They might be able to help you out .
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
*** NOTE - UPDATED WITH CORRECTIONS ******
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lynn Matteson
Sorry if this becomes redundant, but I haven't heard a word of response to a month-ago request for float-rigging info for my Zenair floats on a model IV. And I can't seem to get off a private message either. I know you float-fliers are out there, and I'm anxious to join the party. : )
Lynn Matteson
Ok Lynn, I have some info for you. I did some calculations using a variety of float install information I've aquired over the years, and then called a few people that I consider to be float experts to see what they thought about how to best float a Jab 2200 Speedster? The good news is that we all came up with approximately the same numbers. The bad news is that I can't tell you exactly how we came up with that, as we all used different methods to arrive at our numbers :confused: . But after talking about what would be best for your situation we all agreed that the best thing to do is to use experience rather than formulas. Many seem to think that float installation is a science, but the reality is that it's more like an art. So in the end the numbers we decided to use are based on our collective experience more than what you might find in some textbook. But we're confident that it's more likely to help you than if you were left to do it by the book.
But I do have to make this disclaimer; None of us are formally trained on any of this. We're just guys that have been flying these kind of floatplanes for a lot of years, and have learned mostly through our own trial and error. So don't be surprised if you find that you may have to tweak things a bit after you've installed the floats on your airplane. With homebuilts since no two are alike you almost always have to do some trial and error before you get it right. And while I'm pretty confident we can get you 85-90% accurate to where your floats need to be, it's likely that you may need to tweak the throat angle and/or step placement if you want to extract the top performance from your new floatplane. And if by some stroke of dumb luck our numbers work well without any tweaking, then you can just consider that a bonus you get to enjoy from all of our years of fiddling :)
So let's cut to the chase;
- First, set your spreader bars so that the floats are no more than 8 ft wide at the widest part. Typically that means that if you drew a centerline down each float lengthwise, from the center of each float (with Zenairs that would be the channel that you walk on), that measurement should be 6 ft. Our experience has shown that a lot of people put the floats too far apart, reducing their off-the-water performance of the float. Most people don't know this, but the bow wave coming off the front of each float helps to hydrodynamically lift the other float next to it in the initial part of the takeoff run.
- Second, set the floats up for about a 22 inch height from the top deck of the float to the bottom longeron on your Kitfox. That should give you enough prop clearance, while still benefitting from the use of ground effect to help make the wing lift sooner. You will notice when looking at most of Zenairs float install pictures that they tend to mount their floats further away from the airplane than what I'm telling you. That's not to say what they're doing doesn't work. But if the aircraft is kept closer to the float it typically results in having the wing closer to the water, which makes better use of ground effect (or should I say water effect?). The theory is simple, as the aircraft moves forward the air becomes slightly compressed under the wing, which helps to create lift sooner. Or at least that's what some of us believe ;) (plus, sitting lower on the floats also helps with stability on the water)
- Third, level the Kitfox using the bottom door frame tube (this is very important). Then locate the most aft (rearward) center of gravity for your Kitfox, and run a plumb bob down from that area of wing to the floor.
- Fourth, slide the floats under the aircraft until you have located the step 3 to 5 inches aft of the rearward Center of Gravity range for your Kitfox (3-5 inches from where the plumb line is hanging). On my Kitfox equipped with Aerocet floats (which handles and performs marvelously), that positions the step directly below the middle of the 3rd (from the front) landing gear attach bracket (see the photo I attached of the float rigging dimensions for my Kitfox to see what I am describing. But note that the 23 inch measurement I am showing in the picture was done only so you could have an easy way to see EXACTLY where my step is located). Your step location should be somewhere near where mine is in the picture. And you probably will find it even further aft as the location of the step on my Kitfox is as far forward as you would want a set of Zenairs. If you put it further forward you are likely to have water handling issues (e.g. porpoising), and too much forward CG.
The Zenair amphib is about 2 ft longer than my Aerocet amphib, so when the Zenair is installed the bows with all the nosegear weight is much farther out in front of the airplane than mine, and likely will cause the aircraft CG to move quite a bit forward. So it is possible that you might need to move the float even further back than the 3-5 inches. The good thing is that having to move the step back because the float is long doesn't do much to affect water handling. The worse it does is (maybe) extend your water run for takeoff.
But have the step too far forward and you can cause all kinds of weird, and even scary water handling issues.
- Fifth, set the float angle. On an aircraft with a high power to weight ratio you can get away with just a 2 to 3 degree (tail low) angle on floats. But for most normal aircraft that number is more like 4 to 6 degrees. In the case of your Kitfox I would recomment going with a 4 to 5 degree angle (using the top of the float and the bottom of the door frame) as the Kitfox wing does generate a lot of lift for its size, and your overall wing loading is still relatively low.
The last two photos attached are just there to show you how the float should look when the airplane is at high speed on the step. Commonly a floatplane will ride on only about 4 inches of the float, the area just ahead of the step (also known as "The sweet spot"). It may look as though the back of the float is skimming too, but it is essentially that small 4 inch area ahead of the step doing all the work. That's why it is ultra critical to have the step in the right location.
One last suggestion is to study the photos of my Kitfox closely, as even though I have Aerocet amphibs and you have Zenairs, the concept is the same. So if you can just make a few minor changes to your rigging as explained above, it's likely you will get great enjoyment from your new Kitfox floatplane.
I will follow up this post with some more pics that I also feel might help you.
Paul
(please forgive my late editing - I had a computer crash earlier)
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Thanks VERY much for that info, Paul. Just to give you a bit of feedback, I had set my floats up exactly to the 6-foot centerline separation that you suggested, and because my floats are 24" wide, the max of 8 foot that you mention is adhered to. I went with the 6-foot centerline wheel separation that my Grove landing gear gave me, as that looked "about right for float separation." (solid engineering presumption on my part, eh?)
Next, I had rigged up a mock Kitfox lower longeron "frame" and had this spaced 18 inches above the float walkway. I had originally figured that I had to keep the overall height of the tail fin under 120" due to the height of my hangar door. Your dimensions will fit within this parameter. I'll just raise the lower longeron on my mockup. This mockup is just to give me an idea of what the struts and diagonals will look like and allow me start some of the cutting on those parts without having to actually ground the plane so soon. I wouldn't actually build to this mockup, I will just use it for getting the bottoms of the struts and diagonals cut to shape, leaving adequate length for the tops to be cut when the plane is actually hanging over the floats.
Lynn
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lynn Matteson
Thanks VERY much for that info, Paul. Just to give you a bit of feedback, I had set my floats up exactly to the 6-foot centerline separation that you suggested, and because my floats are 24" wide, the max of 8 foot that you mention is adhered to...
Lynn,
I had a computer crash (and a brain crash :eek:) after a bunch of interruptions while trying to put this whole thing together for you. So please make sure to go back and read all that I just reposted. It will probably make more sense than the earlier gobbledy gook I wrote.
I like the idea of your rigging mock up. I'm not that smart, I just crawl around under the airplane while it hangs mid air from a chain while I cut struts and cables :confused: (see pic below and note wife's comment "Are you sure this is safe?)
Your 18 inch spacing between the fuselage and top of float would probably be ok because you aren't running a long prop.
But also remember that whatever throat angle you use will lower or raise the tail accordingly. And it's amazing what an inch or two off a strut can do to tail height. The original rigging I got with my used Aerocets were modified for a VW powered Kitfox , so it had a HUGE throat angle. After I figured out what I needed for struts and I got them installed the tail came up a about a foot and a half! I'm lucky I have a tall hangar...
(of course a guy can always build a cart or two to go under the nosewheels to keep the tail down when in the hangar)
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17 Attachment(s)
Re: I still need float-rigging info
I put at the end of this post a random bunch of old photos I had saved of Kitfoxes with Zenair or Czech floats installed. I thought if you hadn't already seen them you might like to. As we all know when it comes to building things, sometimes a picture can be worth a thousand words...
(Incidentally, the blue, red, and white Kitfox IV on white Czech amphibs is a short wing Speedster version as I recall...FYI )
In addition, just below this post you should find a mechanical drawing of my Aerocet float details with dimensions. But more importantly it shows my full scale drawing of the fuselage attach brackets you will probably need for installing your floats on your Kitfox. You might still be able to buy those fittings from John or Deb at Kitfox? But if not you can hopefully make your own from the drawings on that sheet. I traced them full scale and then scanned them into digital, so I'm thinking if you print that page on an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper, you should probably end up with a full size template. And if not at least the fuselage attach fitting concept is there for you.
But if you do end up making your own, I would recommend making the fittings longer (per the hashed lines I added). That way if you need to you can adjust your float rigging up or down without having to buy all new (expensive) strut material.
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
I put at the end of this post a random bunch of old photos I had saved of Kitfoxes with Zenair or Czech floats installed....Paul
Thanks for the updates, Paul. I haven't re-read the original posting (with edits) nor all of the latest, but just skimmed it enough to make a reply. The one thing about rigging that Zenair DOES make available are machined fittings that fit the Kitfox IV factory-welded brackets. I already have these fittings and all the strut and diagonal brace material, and of course the plane has the 4-on-each-side float/ski brackets. Yesterday morning, after thinking of how to make the rigging somewhat adjustable, I laid an aluminum bar across the pickup tubes on one of my floats...fore and aft...to check on the feasibility of making the throat adjustable. I leveled the float so this bar was reading "zero" on a digital level. Then I placed a 1/2" shim under one end of the bar....the dig. scale read 0.5 deg. Then I removed the 1/2" shim and used a 1.5" shim (2x4) and the reading was 1.5 degrees. Swapping the shims to the other end, one at a time, and the reading were the same. In short, as luck would have it, whatever the thickness of the shim is in inches, adjusts the reading a similar number of degrees. So if I were to use, say, a 1" shim under each of the four rigging blocks that bolt to the spreader bars, then set the plane-to-float (throat angle) angle at say, 4 degrees, fly it, and if an adjustment were necessary, I could remove the front 1" shims, and the throat would close up 1 degree to 3 degrees, or remove just the rear shims, and the throat angle would open to become 5 degrees. Or, if the plane flew well at the original setting, I could remove all four shims, and still be at the 4 degrees of the original setup. Now, is this what others have done to have some adjustability, or am I all wet (no pun intended) on this theory? Using shims judiciously under what Zenair calls the "pickup fitting" which is shaped like a pillow block and to which all the fittings are attached, raises or lowers the entire rigging package...struts, diagonals, x-wires, and airplane....at once, and no changing of the struts or diagonals is needed. So, in my thinking, I can easily change the throat angle, but it's the placemant of the step in regards to the C of G that would involve drastic changes of strut/diagonal tubing length if that original step/CG placement were not made right to begin with.
Your thoughts?
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Lynn,
Typically people use extended float fittings at both ends (float and fuselage) so that you can move it up and down in the other bolt holes to adjust it wherever needed. But the way you are describing yours with using shims, I can't see why that wouldn't work just as well.
And yes, I agree it is much more difficult to be able to adjust the step location. I've seen people use a c-channel mounted upside down to the top of the float (usually attached to the area where the spreader bars are) so the struts could be moved to different bolt holes in the c-channel, allowing the float to be moved fore and aft by just moving the strut fittings in the bolt holes. If you can figure out a way to do that even temporarily until you are ok with how your airplane performs, that could save you a lot of time and frustration (and probably money because you won't need to cut up so much strut material). Once you know you are happy with how the floats perform, you can always make a permanent fitting for attachment.
Half the battle with installing floats is understanding what you are trying to actually accomplish. And from what I'm hearing from you, you are most definitely on the right track :)
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
Lynn,
Typically people use extended float fittings at both ends (float and fuselage) so that you can move it up and down in the other bolt holes to adjust it wherever needed...
Thank, Paul....I hadn't thought of the C-channel idea for fore-to-aft placement, but that's a good idea. I might even be able to incorporate the shimming-for-throat-angle method into the C-channel idea, and have a more or less universal temporary flyable mount. This is getting exciting!
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Paul-
I have a question regarding that blue, red, and white Kitfox IV....it is the only one of the planes pictured that has the diagonal brace starting from the rear fuselage bracket and going forward and down. I have been told that the diagonal brace (on float-equipped planes)will start at the fuselage directly above where the original landing gear was mounted...or near where the original main wheel was. So, if that is true, that would make all the other pictures of Kitfoxes (that you posted) appear to have been originally tailwheel planes, and the blue, red, and white one would have been a tricycle gear plane originally? Just curious...
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Lynn,
I don't think that installation has anything to do with being a taildragger or a trike gear setup.
I'm guessing the reason for that is because those floats have the spreader bars closer together than most floats. A lot of builders as well as manufacturers don't really know what they are doing when putting floats together, so they put spreader bars too far back, too far forward, too close together, etc, etc.. if you compare the blue airplane to the others, you will notice there is a lot more float forward of the the front speader bar, besides the rear spreader attach being moved forward causing that rear strut to be more vertical. So something is different with those floats than most. At one point I do know the Czech's were building a 1250 that moved the step 6 or 8 inches back to offer more forward buoyancy for the Rans S7 guys, and I know the first sets did not have the spreader bars moved ahead to match the new step location. So I'm guessing those might be a set of those floats?
The Czechs did the same thing on their first set of their CZ 1300 amphibs. They made them initially for a specific airplane that had really closely spaced attach fittings that also were way far forward. They essentially couldn't give those floats away for install on other airplanes until Ken from Harbor sport aviation modified them and redesigned the landing gear so they could easily be mounted and used on other airplanes like the Rans, Kitfox, Highlander, etc. Ironically, after the spreaders and gear were fixed, they became one of the nicest floats out there.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Hey Lynn, are you out there?
I never heard back to see how your float installation turned out? I figured by now (knowing how commited you were to making a Jab powered Speedster work on floats) that you must have it all figured out or you would have recontacted me.
Hopefully you are having so much fun on your floats that you didn't have time to write :) but now that float season is ending I'm hoping you may have some time to let us know your results.
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Lynn hasn't logged in since 2-1-15. Hope he is ok.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Thanks. I'll see if I can track him down through some mutual friends.
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
Thanks. I'll see if I can track him down through some mutual friends.
Hi Paul
Good to hear from you. I tried to answer last night with a text from my cell phone, but it apparently didn't go through. Rather than go into a lengthy discourse of what has happened with the floats so far, I'll send this and see if that works. If it does, get ready for a lengthy tale of some success and a lots of woe.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Hey Lynn, nice to hear from you!
I'd love to hear your success and your woes with floating your Fox, and I'm sure others here on the forum would too. So please, by all means share with us your experiences with putting amphib floats on your Kitfox 4 Speedster.
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
Hey Lynn, nice to hear from you!
I'd love to hear your success and your woes with floating your Fox...
After I got the floats rigged (pretty much to your suggestions, Paul), I tried taxiing, and the plane wouldn't respond correctly to input from brake applications...this is an anphib, as you recall. It turns out that I had crossed up the brake lines during the installation, so I swapped the lines where they crossed and this small problem went away...duh!
We got all the weights recorded, balance was within specs, and my flight instructor took it up for a flight...perfect...no handling issues. He took it to the lake, made a couple of landings, then I got in with him for a test flight, and a lesson. With two of us aboard...me 165 lbs, him 235...the plane took forever....45 seconds plus...to lift off. Next we tried getting on step, lifting a float and popping it off the water. This worked, but he suggested that the step needed to go further aft, as he could feel the aft of the floats being "snatched" down upon landing, and that the sweet spot was too hard to hold when trying to get on step. We tried more landings and takeoffs, but it was always the same story....long takeoff runs.
He suggested that because of the short wings, lift was suffering, so I told him that I could add the previously cut off (prior to my buying the incomplete plane) wing section back onto the plane.
That job kept me busy for a couple of weeks, and when I had that little chore done, I tried a flight...not much better, I felt, but hard to compare with previous flights from my field because of the long wet Spring, and the soggy grass runway, now dried out and comparing those conditions with a now-longer wing and now dry conditions.
During the next few weeks, I got intermittent training in his J-3 on straight Edo floats, and was getting more comfortable with this whole different aspect of float-flying, but not ready to solo yet. This was partly due to the backwards layout of the Cub....tach reads backwards, controls are in opposite hands, can't see the carb heat knob, water rudder lift handle is to the side and slightly behind me...all hard for this 78-year old adjust to. : )
All that, and his available time is short, because of his job flying for a major airline, and domestic duties, none of which I have, so the frustration level on my part is raising.
A couple of times he would have me landing at his place, and would distract me with talk of something or the other and I'd be on final with the wheels still up...exactly what he wanted to see. So he'd have me go around, naturally, and by now I figured that a checklist would be handy, and also for me to call for a "sterile cockpit" which shut him up. :) Don't get me wrong....he's just trying to keep me safe...and we get along just fine. I also work on planes for him in my spare time at his place.
So eventually he flies it to a hard-surfaced airport near here, (I drive) and do multiple landings on that smooth surface and he finally ok's me to fly solo after he's convinced that I can call out all the checklist items....carb heat, mixture, landing gear position, rpm, water rudder position, etc. I do 3-4 solo landings and he ok's me to fly it home solo to my place....finally, after 5 weeks of installing the floats, having it flown for tests, and flying it with my instructor, I was released to fly it home solo and park it in my own hanger. Now I can fly it by myself again...from and to land only, mind you...but at least I can fly it alone again. And now is when I can get into trouble ALL by myself...and I do!
That's enough for this segment, I'll continue later or tomorrow...Oshkosh experience, coming up.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Hi, great story.
Did you end up moving the step aft some ?
I have a pipe dream of amphibs on my outback series 5, so all these stories , life lessons are very interesting!
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Hey Lynn, can you type faster? ;)
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear the rest!
Paul
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Landing gear woes
Now that I've got the plane back in my hangar, I can fly it to local fly-ins, breakfasts, etc., but with a warning from Brian (my flight instructor, mentor, and good friend) that these floats are not the strongest he's ever seen, and that the landing gear is the weak point. I shouldn't be considering them to be as strong as the Grove landing gear that I built the plane with, and I ought to be operating them on hard/smooth runways whenever possible....in other words, cut out some of the turf activity. Well, that's hard to do when my place is turf, and so is his, and so are most of the places I frequent. So I kinda let this advice fall on deaf ears, which mine nearly are, and this will bite me in the ass later on....
So now I've modified my plane, after I've flown it for over 1600 hours and to both coasts of the US, into something that I can't fly to all the places that I used to, can't fly it into lakes, etc., because the training is dependent on Brian's time being available, and I'm getting frustrated.
I should point out here that when I built and installed the floats, that I installed a couple of pressure gauges to show the pressure in the gear retract system...a pressure gauge for the "up" direction, and another for the "down" direction. Because I can't see the actual position of the wheels, I operate the switch (operation is electrical/hydraulic pump) in the chosen direction until I see the pressure gauge max out, telling me that the work is done....all four cylinders are at their maximum extension or retraction, whichever the case may be, and I can release the switch. Right from the start of the project, I had built mechanical indicators for the front wheels to show up or down, but nothing yet for the main wheels. I was relying on the pressure gauges to show position indication of the mains, either up or down...another ass-biter coming up.
Lynn
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Quote:
Originally Posted by
av8rps
Hey Lynn, can you type faster? ;)
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear the rest!
Paul
I can type faster, but the squirrels in the modem are complaining.
Lynn;)
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Re: I still need float-rigging info
Landing gear woes solved?
Somewhere along the way, Brian suggested that as old as I am, and having flown only one plane (not true, I've flown about six different planes, but no solos in them) that I should look into getting a device to remind me to check gear location. I figured that the gear position is the only thing different about flying this plane now as opposed to wheels only flying. He pointed out: "Isn't your life worth $600?" (approx. cost of a gear position reminder device that calls out wheels down for runway landing, or wheels up for water landing)
I guessed that it was, and ordered one...it'd give me something to do while waiting for the next lesson. So I got the device from Spruce, and it needed info from the gear telling it where the wheels actually were....position switches. So I set about building a small switchbox containing two microswitches, one that would close (complete the circuit to ground) when wheels were up, and one that would close when wheels were down, and I wired them into the plane. I then built a small subpanel ( running out of room on the main instrument panel) and mounted a green light (runway landing) and a blue light (water landing). This worked great! Now instead of watching for the pressure gauges to indicate when the wheels were at their end positions, I had these really cool lights that came on to tell me the same thing...or so I thought.
I got this panel mounted on the plane the day before I left for Oshkosh. Took it up for a flight or two and everything was ginger-peachy. Weather kept me from going until Monday of Oshkosh week, and when I did get going (west from here [southern Michigan], then around Chicago, then north) I had a 10-15 mph headwind until I turned north. I finally got there, stopping once for fuel/**** call, then landed on 27 at OSH, and made the turnoff to head for Seaplane parking. An attendant crossed his arms in front of me and I stopped. "You have smoke coming from your right float" I got out and the right float was dragging on the pavement. A small group had gathered and they lifted the wing while I ran the "'down" switch. The wheel locked into position, I thanked them and taxied off to my eventual parking place.
When I had changed my procedure from watching the gauges max out as an indicator of "locked and loaded", to watching the light come on, I overlooked the fact that the light was indicating that ONE wheel, the left one, (the ONLY one with the switches) was locked, and I still needed to observe the gauge for max pressure...the only true (more on this later) indicator of maximum wheel movement.
More later...gotta go install a bladder tank into a Republic SeaBee.
Lynn