Use of 100 LL with 912 ULS

[jrevens]

I haven't had to use any 100 LL in my Kitfox with 912 ULS yet. I know it's used by many owners, but I've been lucky to have access to a supplier of non-ethanol 91 octane mogas for about $3/gal. I built a 40 gal. tank w/ pump, etc. for the bed of my pickup & it works great, but I realize I'll have to use 100 LL frequently on long cross country trips. My question is, do those of you using it regularly open and clean the oil tank at every oil change? It seems like that would be a real pain. I plan on using Decalin when burning avgas. Is TCP considered any better by anyone on this forum?

Thanks in advance.

[DHeal]

I use Shell 91 with 10% ethanol about 90% of the time in my RV-12/912ULS -- seems to work great over the past 750+ hours. When forced to use 100LL on trips, I add Decalin. I rarely have to clean my oil tank due to my high use of unleaded mogas. Cleaning the oil tank once a year for 100LL users is relatively simple and does not generally require purging of the oli system if done properly. ROTAX OWNERS site discusses this aspect of oil tank cleaning versus purging.

[jrevens]

Thanks, Steve & David... I appreciate it!

[jiott]

I use clear 92 Mogas 95% of the time, but I still clean my oil tank at every 50 hour oil change. Rather than drain it thru the plug on the bottom (and then have to replace the safety wire) I just remove the two fittings on the tank lid and empty the tank with a suction gun, and then inspect and clean the internal parts. I never remove the tank from its mounting bracket. I tie up the outlet hose so it remains full and no purge is ever needed. The tank inlet hose from the bottom of the engine can be left dangling down to completely drain the oil from the crankcase. Its actually surprising the grey lead slime coating the inside of the tank after a long x-country trip burning 100LL.

[jrevens]

Thanks, Jim!

[punkin]

Hey John,

Where are you buying your autogas? Sam Hill, or do you have another source? I’d prefer not to be running ethanol, but other than Brighton, I’ve only been able to get 87oct autogas.



Thanks!

[Dorsal]

Hey John,
I, unfortunately, burn 100% avgas. Change the oil every 25, filter every 50 and clean the tank every 100 or at annual whichever happens first (which has been about 50 hrs for the last several years). I also find cleaning the tank a pain but if you are burning mostly mogas then I would think cleaning at annual should be more than fine.

[jrevens]

Yep, it’s Sam Hill.

[jrevens]

Hey John,
I, unfortunately, burn 100% avgas. Change the oil every 25, filter every 50 and clean the tank every 100 or at annual whichever happens first (which has been about 50 hrs for the last several years). I also find cleaning the tank a pain but if you are burning mostly mogas then I would think cleaning at annual should be more than fine.

Thanks, Dorsal. I sure wish Swift Fuel or some other lead-free avgas would become more available around the country, faster.

[Dorsal]

Agreed, only two airports off UL94 in Mass and I'm in the middle of them (~hour west or east). I have encouraged some more local but so far no joy :(
After cleaning all the lead oxide out of my exhaust ports (and the rest of the heads) I am really looking forward to UL fuel! Doesn't seem to be much progress on the UL94 map.

[Slyfox]

I been burning 91oct with no alki. now with the price of fuel going up I might go back to burning with alki. it never hurt my engine. I change oil every 50hrs and replace the filter. I always pull the top off the tank to clean it out and fill to within about a 1/2 inch from top. very easy to do, I never replace the o ring. I have a flap that I pull out on and the clamp comes off, pull the inside out and set to the side with a rag under it. I don't disconnect any hoses. the screen inside I pull out and put in a pan on the floor. I take a suck gun and suck out the fluid and put it into a 1 gal jug left over from the previous oil. I get down to the bottom plate and pull that out and suck out the rest of the oil. I take a couple blue rags (Costco) and wipe it out looking for any particles, so far none. I put oil in the tank to the level it was when I took the top off. I now pull off the filter and take the new one and fill it up with oil. stick it on. done. I can do it real fast, within a 1/2 hour. I don't purge any line because I never took any off. long time ago I measured what come out of the lines and the amount was so small, not even a 1/2 cup. I take the plane out of the hangar and crank it over for no more than 15 seconds, I wait a few second and crank again. the oil pressure will come up. I stop, let it sit a bit. crank it again to make sure it's got pressure. now I turn on the mags and let er rip. starts up and got pressure for oil right away.

now with all this said and done, I don't like an efis for oil pressure, I like manual all the way and I like mag switches not an ignition switch. I can crank and not have it start.

now for 100LL, that stuff is nasty. It needs to be replaced. I hate it in my RV with the io360 and it's a nasty thing in the rotax. I know whats killing the get rid of 100LL, those boys with the big engine out there, they want lead and high octane. us boys are on the back burner. money speaks today.

I run auto fuel in my rv also. this engine has over 1300hrs and the top end is nice and Purdy.

[Dave S]

Thanks, Dorsal. I sure wish Swift Fuel or some other lead-free avgas would become more available around the country, faster.

I don't know how the Swift Fuels thing has been working around other parts of the country. In my aeronautical neighborhood I am finding that some airports which had 91 autogas on the field are simply replacing it with Swift in the same tank, deleting the autogas. Swift in=autogas out. Adding another tank and pump is likely not in the cards economically at most small airports.

Another observation is Swift was fairly competitive with 91 autogas when it was first changed to at certain airports - now that it has been around a bit the price of Swift went up compared to autogas.

We have several 91 (R+M/2) autogas locations at local filling stations. The facility I use has a dedicated pump and tank that is not used for anything else. One of the other stations switched from a dedicated pump to a high tech single delivery hose, complete with a "Betty" (so you get to listen to that); and, the single hose is used for regular, premium and 91 corn free. Aside from potential valve leakage, malfunction or nefarious interference by the station management, when a person fills a 5 gallon can off this pump you are probably getting the 91 corn free diluted with up to a gallon of the other stuff from what was last delivered through the hose - inconsequential to today's cars; but, not good for a ULS.

[Paul Z]

I use 100LL almost exclusively when I had my 912 Kitfox. In Texas all you can get is Ethanol. I used 3 tanks of ethanol, the ethanol stripped something out of my tanks. I contended it was stripping epoxy out of my tanks, John says it was mold release. Regardless what is stripped out, it caused all kind problems. I only know of 2 places that sold MoGas, no where near by. I started running 100LL with Decalin from then on. I did oil changes every 25 hours, replaced the oil filter every 25 hours, Religiously used Decalin, cleaned the Oil Tank out at every oil change. However, at about 475 hours I had to send the engine in to have the heads, valves, cylinders cleaned of the lead build up. I was pulling it through after an oil change, and it felt like the cylinders hit a hard stop. I pulled the engine crated it back up for a second time, and sent it to California Power Systems (Aircraft Spruce), they said the lead build up flaked off and jammed up under a valve.

[Flybyjim]

I buy Swift fuel direct and have it delivered to my airport. you can order in 350 gal totes or by the 55 gal drums.
Works very very well.

[jiott]

Price/gal. in the 55 gallon drums? Also in 350 gallon tote?

[mike92104]

I'm also curious to know how much the drum or tote costs.

[Flybyjim]

I will let you know on the prices next week as I am ordering a new shipment on Tuesday.

Jim

[aviator79]

Any update on the price for 55 gal drums?

[Flybyjim]

I have called Swift but have not received the quote yet. I will post ASAP

[skyguy04]

Swift fuels is unleaded? Is it more stabile than mogas? I have a good supply of ethanol free mogas, but I’d like to keep a 55 gal drum in the hangar for easy fueling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flybyjim]

Here is what I received from Swift fuels today, these prices are for delivery to my airport in central Pa.
Fuel Products:UL 165 8.50 1,402.50
Taxes & Fees:FAE 165 0.194 32.01
Taxes & Fees:PAS 165 0.06 9.90
__________________________________________________ __________________________
--------------------------------------
Total: $1,444.41--this covers the 3 new 55gal drums, fuel and delivery $8.75/gal


This quote is for (3) 55-gallon drums of UL94 delivered. Unit price
includes the cost of delivery and an additional surcharge for new steel
drums.


Product or Activ Quantity Unit Cost (USD) Total (USD)
Fuel Products:UL 350 7.00 2,450.00
Taxes & Fees:FAE 350 0.194 67.90
Taxes & Fees:PAS 350 0.06 21.00
__________________________________________________ __________________________
--------------------------------------
Total: $2,538.90



This quote is for 350 gallons of UL94 delivered. Unit price includes cost
of delivery. Quote contingent upon return of tote within 30 days.
$7.25 per gal.

This may be higher than 100ll fuels near you, it is much higher than autogas but I have been burning this fuel now for over a year and there is no worry about lead or fuel lines and the tanks. The best option would be an airport that is getting it in bulk-500 gal or more. This quote is higher than what I paid for the last 350gal tote by about $2.00 per gal. I have sent an email back to find why the increase from last year. I generally burn about 200 gal per year.

[jrevens]

Wow, that's expensive! Last I checked, 100LL was $4.59/gal. at a local airport, and 91 octane ethanol-free mogas was over a dollar cheaper than that at my supplier. There was so much talk from the Swift Fuel guys at Oshkosh every year that their product would be cheaper than 100LL. I thought at the time... "yeah, sure."

[Dorsal]

YIKES and bummer, this may be why none of the local airports want to bring the stuff in.

[Dave S]

Wow, that's expensive! Last I checked, 100LL was $4.59/gal. at a local airport, and 91 octane ethanol-free mogas was over a dollar cheaper than that at my supplier. There was so much talk from the Swift Fuel guys at Oshkosh every year that their product would be cheaper than 100LL. I thought at the time... "yeah, sure."

Swift started out at a reasonable price in our neighborhood @ the airports that converted to it. Didn't last long - raised the prices drastically after a short while. Frankly, I see this as the old marketing ploy - "Lowball 'em to start, once they are using, raise the price".

It's complicated - not a big market and volume matters.

I suppose it depends on where you choose to compare - Right now I can find Minnesota 100LL for $8.08 at KMSP; or, $3.99 at KROS.

I'd love to use Swift; but it is not economically feasable. Corn free 91 Autogas is still the best choice around here to avoid lead poisoning a Rotax.

"Yeah, Sure, 'ya 'Betcha"

[Flybyjim]

It is disappointing as I really like the fuel but the price is about $2.00 more per gal than the last delivery of 350gal. I talked with Lockwood and it is all they use in the Rotax engines at their flight school. For me, I will not use auto gas for several reasons, mixes vary and when I had to use it my 100 Rotax did not run as smooth and temps were not consistent. With 100LL using Decland or similar I had smoother runs more constant temps. With Swift once again a smoother run, better startups, and temps did not vary from day to day.

I will probably bite the bullet and order their fuel.

[Meyer]

I believe fuel loses its octane fairly quickly. How would you store that much and keep the octane up?

[jrevens]

I could be wrong, but I believe the Swift fuel is similar to 100LL in that regard and is pretty stable... probably be fine for a year or more. Just a guess.

[Flybyjim]

According to Swift their fuel will hold to 94 even if stored outside in the sunlight in their 350gal tote for 18-24 months. Seeing that we keep the fuel inside a building in sealed 100gal fuel tanks I'm sure the octane will be fine. I do know auto fuel will lose octane if just a few short weeks.

I have not yet ordered our second tank, the price is a bit hard to swallow.