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David47
03-20-2017, 03:08 AM
Hi guys, I've been looking at this Forum for 6 months or more, and making the odd contribution. But at last, my kit has arrived in Australia after several months enroute which, from tracking the ship looks like its done a grand tour of SE Asia ! (we really need a grappling hook to tow the USA closer to Aus .... or vice versa). It arrived on St Patrick's day (March 17) in good shape.

First off, I must pay tribute to Debra McBean and the folks at Kitfox. The packing of the crate and kitting of the parts is second to none. The assembly manual is simply outstanding. In the very early stages before placing an order, I stalked John McBean with question after question. Got replies every time. Thanks John and Debra. Very glad I chose this kit aeroplane.

I've included some photos of kit arrival and setup. I'm building in a 20ft x 30ft shed, with a double garage acting as a storage for major assemblies when complete. It will also most likely act as a paint booth.

Anyway, hope to make a contribution to the extensive library of knowledge on this site, which is mind boggling.

rosslr
03-20-2017, 03:18 AM
Congratulations Dave!

Have you got it up at Echuca or in Melb?

Home for a few weeks now - so if at Echuca might fly out for the day if you are up there?

looking forward to your posts and I'm sure you will enjoy the build as much as flying it when finished!

cheers

ross

efwd
03-20-2017, 05:50 AM
Congrats Dave! I got mine March 12 last year and remember how great a day that was.
Eddie

PapuaPilot
03-20-2017, 05:58 AM
Now the fun begins Dave! You are right the manual is very complete. Keep us posted on you build.

DesertFox4
03-20-2017, 09:09 AM
Crongratulations Dave on the arrival of the big box. Also on your patience.:)

We will await patiently for happy posts on progress made and enjoyment gained.

Enjoy your build Dave.

P.S., take lots of pictures.

Ramos
03-20-2017, 12:17 PM
I see a pair of fat-daddy tires in there! :)

efwd
03-20-2017, 12:25 PM
Wholly Cow! I didn't notice those. They are huge.:eek:

Cherrybark
03-20-2017, 08:51 PM
Great to have another build thread going. Looking forward to more pictures and reports of progress. It is a very enjoyable project and I hope you enjoy the build.

I'll suggest starting a simple log with date, work done and hours. My time keeping has gotten a little sloppy because I just find some free time, wander out to the garage and start working. Having the "last worked" date written down is a real motivator when you skip a day, or two, or ...

efwd
03-20-2017, 09:34 PM
Speaking of sloppy. I haven't logged days on end while working on a multi day step in the manual. I log the date that that process finished. Hope I don't get in trouble.
Eddie

jrevens
03-20-2017, 10:09 PM
Wholly Cow! I didn't notice those. They are huge.:eek:

I'll say... those bad boys are HUGE! Are you sure they aren't giant life-preservers for the ocean voyage? :rolleyes:

Congratulations on getting your kit!

David47
03-21-2017, 05:09 AM
Thanks guys, appreciate the welcome. Finally I can say I own a Kitfox ... just needs a little work done.

Ross, I'm building at Moama, just across the river from Echuca. I'll pm my phone contact if coming up. I'm only there on weekends.

Ramos/Eddie/John E, yep they're 26" Streaky. I'm currently flying a Eurofox tail dragger on hire and it has the same. That extra cushion on landing is nice to have. Ross also has 26" I think and he'd probably agree.

Carl, I've considered keeping a written log as you suggest and I'll likely do it. Good record of the build.

And yes DesertFox4, photos and film. I'm a keen photographer, just not that great at it.

I've learned a lot from the people on the site. There are some great ideas put out there and I hope I can contribute in kind.

Woohoo .... we're off and running !

Brandon Petersen
03-21-2017, 09:06 PM
Congrats in the new airplane! Glad the crate made it safely....but what do expect when the wing guy builds the crate? Lol

Enjoy!!!
Brandon

Mcgaero
03-22-2017, 03:26 AM
Great to see you've got your big box here safe and sound David
Look forward to following your project!

David47
03-23-2017, 06:41 AM
Congrats in the new airplane! Glad the crate made it safely....but what do expect when the wing guy builds the crate? Lol

Enjoy!!!
Brandon

Thanks Brandon. Perhaps then I should have ordered the assembled wing kit !!. Really love your work. The box was in great condition considering it changed ships mid stream in Shanghai.

David47
03-26-2017, 05:01 AM
Had a visit from couple of old hands at this SS7 building business. Ross and wife Gayle flew into Moama strip today to say Hi and have a look at my build space setup. It was great to meet them both finally. It was Ross who recommended I join this Forum. Excellent advice. The known Australian SS7 contingent now numbers 3 in total to date: 1 complete (Ross), one within hours of flying (Ben) and one within 2 years of flying (I hope).

12747
12748

David47
03-26-2017, 04:25 PM
Just throwing my method of record keeping in the middle, more for information than trail blazing techniques. I use a photocopy of the original build manual and draw up date and signature columns against each operations. I also incorporate notes where I might have done something slightly different or where I find an error in the manual (i'll send these back to Debra for info). I also use a daily logbook where I write up everything I do, including comments and hours logged. Each operation is recorded and anything of interest recorded. There are also photographs. Reason I'm doing this is that if I was buying an amateur built aeroplane that had been built by someone else, I'd really like to know the history of the build, warts and all. Also, both records are proof positive that Ive built the thing myself.

These ideas aren't new, just my way of recording what I've done so that airworthiness cert guys and future owners know what really went on !!.

12751

David47
03-29-2017, 05:51 AM
Started working on the flight control system and I've made some good progress. The control column cross tube assembly has been assembled and the RH pivot housing has been drilled off, disassembled and deburred. I'll be wet assembling with a zinc phosphate primer, mainly because I'm having trouble getting a source for an epoxy primer her in Aus. I'm sure I'll find one when I stumble across it while looking for something else !. I've also put together the aileron idler and the elevator idler fittings together with their connecting tubes and fitted them all to the fuselage. At the moment, its going together like a giant Mechano kit. The manual is excellent in both the instructions and the figures. I'm gonna enjoy this.

David47
04-02-2017, 02:57 AM
My second weekend working on the project. I have "Pa" duties during the week with grandkids etc so can't work on it through the week. A bit limiting but that's written into my duty statement for my role as a grandparent ..... I'm sure others on the forum know exactly what I'm talking about. :D

So I set up the control column cross tube for installation, using the single bolt location in the nylon bearing block as a fore-aft locator and then positioned the RH bearing housing parallel with the only reference I could muster up - the lower fuselage tube directly beneath. The RH bearing housing was positioned so that all 4 tabs could be drilled off from underneath. Should have moved the RH bearing assembly a tad further outboard because when I drilled and installed the bolts, one was riding up on the radius of the bearing housing outer angle. More an irritant than anything else because I can make up a throat washer and stop it bearing on the radius but it's a pain having to do it. The bolt length will need increasing to account for it. Need to be more careful next time. The second bolt hole was drilled in the nylon bearing block and both bolts and nuts tightened. There was too much stiction so I relaxed the nuts on the bearing block by about 1/2 turn each and all's good now. I was careful to pay attention to this because in reading Cherrybark's thread, I know he spent quite some time fine tuning his installation as much stiction as possible, as did Eddie and some others. Don't want both feet on the instrument panel while hauling on the stick for more elevator authority ....

Now I should have done some more reading before I installed the control column tube, because I had previously assembled the flap handle and that was the next in line. Like most, I was quite proud of the fact I didn't snap the 1/16" drill when drilling the detent pin. Worked great. But I dropped the roll pin .... found it .... dropped it again, didn't find it. Sadly I need to buy another, but I have to buy a minimum quantity of 100 so I can afford to lose a few.

On trying to install the flap handle, I found that there was way too much interference between the bolt and fuselage mounted bush. So after an hour of struggling to get the bolt in, gave up and removed the control column x-tube, reamed the bush again, sanded the bolt shank with 400 grit, applied grease and that bolt slipped in like leather shoes on wet moss. Checked for side play and all good.

The flaperon mixer assembly was fitted next. Checked side play and installed washers to reduce it to near-on none. Having learned from the Flap handle installation, I checked the fit of the bolt in the installed bearings and they needed reaming, which I did. Greased the bolt and once again, slipped right in there. What surprised me was the number of washers I needed on the thread side of the bolt to allow positive locking of the castellated nut with the cotter pins. Needed 3 on one side and 4 on the other. Anyone else found this ?. Could do with a slightly shorter bolt.

Finished up securing elevator, aileron bellcrank and flaperon mixer control tubes with rod ends. All rod end bolts not tightened at this stage.

Until next weekend .... ;)

efwd
04-02-2017, 05:53 AM
Great weekend of work David.
Regarding the washer stack. I have two thick washers under the head, 1 thick and 1 thin washer between and 2 thick 1 thin under the nut. My total differs from yours by only one thin washer it appears. From what I seem to read you should try to balance out the stack. I believe it is recommended that you shorten the bolt if you need more than two washers under the nut. Obviously I didn't.
Eddie

Bud Davidson
04-02-2017, 06:03 AM
An observation. The flaperon assembly bolt requiring several washers is an indication of a wrong length bolt. I have found many bolts of inaccurate length when considering the number of threads that should show after proper tightening. I am doing a IV 1200.

The picture of the flaperon assembly shows the head of the bolt on the outside of the fuselage. Note: the tube that bolt attaches to is bent inward to clear the fabric when covered. With the bolt installed from that side you will not be able to remove the flaperon assembly without cutting a hole in the fabric to remove the bolt. So, I reversed the bolt so the nut is on the fabric end of the bolt. And that leaves very little clearance so I used a thin castellated nut and kept the bolt length to barely one thread showing. When I cover I am adding a circular extra layer of fabric opposite that nut.

On my previous tube and fabric fuselage close clearances led to chaffing and an eventual hole. I worry about this particular spot.
Bud

David47
04-02-2017, 06:58 AM
Yes Eddie, I'm thinking I'll shorten the bolt and per Bud's suggestion, will consider turning the head to the inside, although that may not be necessary if I install an inspection hole as a "just in case" .... either that or extra fabric in that area. Either way, good piece of advice from a maintenance perspective. Will think on that. Thanks. I'd already decided to provide access holes for the nuts retaining the nylon bearing block and RH bearing Assy for the control column cross tube and I dare say there'll be quite a few more places as well. I haven't read the manual cover to cover yet but I'm sure there'll be plenty of recommendations.

Im keen to put access holes wherever critical bolts and nuts are located. I'm always concerned about nuts unravelling where you have potential vibration or relative motion as in control system joints. I've seen Hi Lok rivet heads rotate relative to their swaged collars in commercial aircraft so it's quite possible for it to happen although nylon nuts should be more resistant to it. That's why I put a green paint mark on the nut and through threads on locknuts so I can see if there's been any nut rotation during inspection intervals.

jrevens
04-02-2017, 09:45 AM
An observation. The flaperon assembly bolt requiring several washers is an indication of a wrong length bolt. I have found many bolts of inaccurate length when considering the number of threads that should show after proper tightening. I am doing a IV 1200.

The picture of the flaperon assembly shows the head of the bolt on the outside of the fuselage. Note: the tube that bolt attaches to is bent inward to clear the fabric when covered. With the bolt installed from that side you will not be able to remove the flaperon assembly without cutting a hole in the fabric to remove the bolt. So, I reversed the bolt so the nut is on the fabric end of the bolt. And that leaves very little clearance so I used a thin castellated nut and kept the bolt length to barely one thread showing. When I cover I am adding a circular extra layer of fabric opposite that nut....
Bud

On my SS7 there is not enough clearance to install the bolt from the inside (on the pilot's side) because of clearance issues with other tabs. That being said, there is adequate clearance to slide the bolt towards the fabric covering to allow removal of the flaperon control assembly if necessary. Additionally, if you were to reverse that bolt you'd need to use a bolt with a drilled head to allow securing the bolt from turning in the hole of that assembly. As designed, the castle nut is safetied while at the same time preventing that turning. The assembly is designed for the bolt to only be turning in the bushings. Putting the extra washers on both sides of the bushings is probably a good idea also, from a friction standpoint... a minor thing, but worth considering. It's probably intentionally designed that way, FWIW.

David47
04-03-2017, 03:15 AM
I see what you mean John. Those two tabs on the aileron tube obstruct putting the bolt the other way round ..ie head away from the fabric. If there's enough room to slide the bolts outboard just enough so that the threads are fully within the bearing bushing, then you could remove the flap and aileron mixer assembly. That works. Looks like the SS7 is different to Bud's MkIV. Thanks.

David47
04-10-2017, 04:26 AM
Couple more days spent on the build this weekend gone. Managed to fit up the flooring after a bit of fettling and prodding. Finished panels came up rather nice, not that you see them, just nice to know that they look good under that carpet ....

The main objective this weekend was to assemble and instal the rudder and brake pedal assembly, including torque tubes and mounting brackets. I knew this would be a bit of a performance as there are multiple parts that need to slide and/or rotate over and around one another and from past experience on other non aircraft projects, this can be fraught with issues. Happily, this wasn't the case here.

Everything was assembled on the bench and it took 400 grit sandpaper and some elbow grease, and bearing grease, to get those plastic bearings sliding and the torque tubes rotating on their bearing ends as they should. Alignment using the LE of the forward tube was not difficult. What I did have to do though was trim the ends of the sliding torque tube about 1/8" or less in order to get the outer support brackets to centre over the fuselage mounting channels. This required a bit of trimming of the outermost plastic bearings because in shortening the tube, the bearings ride further into the torque tube and want to sit almost directly under the fillet weld of the pulley horns. As a result, the local distortion of the tube by the fillet weld means the bearing can't rotate freely and it tends to bind. So a bit of judicious trimming was required. In the end, it all fitted up well and rotates freely without any tendency to stick or bind. However, when torque tightening the bolts against the outer bearings, I had to be very careful not to over tighten because the bearing plastic swelled diametrically and caused binding of the bearing against the mating tube. A further issue in my case, there was insufficient thread protruding through the locknut so I decided to change to a castellated nut with cotter pin. It's a personal thing but I prefer castellated nuts and cotter pins for any joint in which there is even the slightest possibility of a bolt rotating in a joint designed for rotation. In this case, the preload should prevent the bearing and therefore the bolt from rotating, but I'm just a pessimistic old bloke so ....

Started fitting the brake master cylinders on the pilot side. So far so good. I'm about 55 hours touch labour into the project to date - probably that much again in running around getting tools, reading documents and scouring the Team Kitfox Forum for bright ideas, of which there are many, and just generally sucking in the experience of others.

rosslr
04-10-2017, 02:55 PM
Great progress Dave! I think most of us had a bit of drama around that assembly - I think the factory built that in as a 'right of passage'! Great pics along with the description too - it is easy to follow your progress - thanks for the update and hope to catch up again soon.

cheers

r

Cherrybark
04-10-2017, 06:20 PM
I spent hours building and installing the pedal assembly. Torque it down, decide which side was tight, lightly and, repeat. Repeated enough times that I used new nyloc nuts for the final assembly.

Great progress!

David47
04-10-2017, 07:28 PM
Thanks Ross and John. I can see why folks would spend time on this and yes John, it does take a bit of fiddling to set it up right. As a result, I've ordered more nylocs to replace those that I've undone 2 to 5 times, and then some ! I'm also religiously recording hours actually working the project which I hope will be of interest to future builders, and to those who have or are currently working on it. I'm trying to break it done by major assembly. It would be interesting to know how others are faring on the hours as well.

And that brings up another thought I have. Maybe this has already been done, but it would be good to get a picture of the number of hours flown for each model type and over what period. Perhaps I'll shoot a PM to DesertFox4 and see what he thinks about that before I start a thread along those lines.

David47
04-17-2017, 05:02 AM
Well another productive weekend spent on the build. Managed to get couple of days and a bit on it. I finished up the rudder pedal and brake master cylinder installations for both sides. Had heart palpitations when I couldn't find the cylinders and rudder pedal attaching hardware for one side so I e-mailed Debra at Kitfox and bingo, she knew exactly where they should be -..... and were, so all good. As I'm installing the movable rudder pedal option, I built up the adjustment levers for both sides (broke 3 x 1/16" drills in the process of drilling the detent pin holes on one of the pins), installed the 4 associated pulleys and fabricated the cable guards. Because the s/steel sheet was so thin, I had to be extra careful when drilling and even then, some of the holes were elongated. Intense clamping local to the drill point helped to solve that problem for the last couple of holes. Installed everything and now I have 4 dopplegangers up front !. Once again, I'll be replacing the nylocs with castellated nuts and split pins on these instals.

Next off the blocks was the centre console. I bought the prefab kit and man, I'm glad I did. I should imagine that making these detent brackets for both the flap and pedal adjustment levers would be a bit of a performance. I dip my hat to anyone who made their own. The quality of the prefab parts is excellent (as with everything else so far) so it all seemed to come together pretty much as per the manual. Lever detent pins are notching into bracket notches as they should, although I did have to enlarge the forward notch for each rudder pedal pin brackets by about 1/8" in order for the open to seat ok. Other than that, all good.

Next of the rank was the rudder install. Straight forward, with measurements within 1mm of the construction manual dimensions. I did have to run a 1/4-28 UNF tap through each tapped bushes couple of times to clean them up, but the rod ends seated well and everything lined up ok.

Installation of the fuel header tank was straightforward. I've sealed all inlets as we get a lot of wasps here and they're constantly looking for a place to build a mud home ..... they built one in the exhaust outlet of a brush cutter I have some years ago. Wouldn't start until I discovered the nest and cleaned it out.

The last thing I tackled this weekend was the reaming of the tailplane and elevator bushes and install of the bearing bushes. I had read via other build threads that reaming of the 7/16" diameter weldment bushes on the the 7 elevator attach points could be difficult. Fortunately, my reamers come with a square ended shaft so it was relatively easy to use an adjustable shifter and the reamer. All done within 1/2 hour or so. However, installing the interference fit bearing bushes (maybe aluminium bronze or similar ?) took a bit of head scratching. I decided to go with what most people probably do - a 5/16" nut and bolt with washers - hand tightening via spanners to draw the bush through (refer photo). The washers have a flat ground on them so they allow centring over the hole. Toward the end, I had to loosen it all off and incorporated a 3/8" nut on the thread side in order to prevent the 5/16" nut from riding onto the bolt shank (refer photo). I've done 4 bushes like this and each one takes about 15-20 minutes to do. So couple of hours work here in total I would think. I also needed couple of extra nuts and bolts because the effort on the spanner toward the final stages of the install can cause the spanner to slip off the nut or bolt head, leading to semi-rounded nut or bolt heads ....... and bruised knuckles. But for me, it's a cheap and effective way of doing it.

All good ------- so far.

DesertFox4
04-17-2017, 10:39 AM
Looking good David. Nice bit of progress. I enjoyed the stage you are in right now.
I also opted for the pre-fab kit. Glad I did. Darn those drill bit breaking detent pins.:confused: Finally took mine to a friend's shop and put it under a drill press. Still broke one more bit. That pin is some hard steel.

It's been a while since I installed my elevator bushings but I recall using my bench vise to slowly press them into the elevator hinges. My vise is mounted on a movable bench so I could get it out in the middle of my hangar and away from the walls. Those elevators are big and you need lots of room to manuever them around the vise. Took me and Dan B. maybe an hour to do all of them. Was nice to have some help on that stage.

I borrowed a reamer from Murle Williams to do the elevator bushing prep. Murle welded the appropriate size reamer to the end of a long steel shaft that mounts in your drill and that allows reaming from the outside hinge right through each of the hinges to the next. So slick and fast. Maybe 15 minutes to do all of the hinge barrels. Wish I had a photo of it. Worked great.

jiott
04-17-2017, 11:25 AM
I used a heavy duty C-clamp to press in the bushings.

efwd
04-17-2017, 11:45 AM
I used a c clamp as well.
The McBeans should have somebody weld up a bunch of those reamers as described above and whenever someone calls about how they are going to accomplish that task he can just say "we have those specially made taps". I hated doing those with a ground off tap and a wrench.
Eddie

rosslr
04-17-2017, 03:19 PM
Great Progress Dave! Your descriptions and photos are so useful for others! Interesting to hear all the ingenious methods of pressing those bearings! I used the same method as you did.

You'll be covering before you now it!

cheers

r

David47
04-17-2017, 07:45 PM
Yes Steve, those pins are real hard, and I found that unless you have the 1/16" drill bit well into the drill chuck (to stop buckling of the drill under load) and the centre punch top dead centre in the machine vice, the drill will try and slip off all over the place !. It was like a wobbly piece of jelly. And I like the long rod with reamer attached idea. You should patent that !

Jim and Eddie, I tried the "C" clamp idea but my clamps have a ball joint on the adjustable side and I didn't want to buy yet another tool for this job. But that to me would be the best way to do it. The nut and bolt approach I used works ok, just a little slow ..... and can be painful to boot !.

Thanks Ross. I know that by reading other people's posts you can learn a lot about how they went about it. That's why I try to post enough detail to help others along the way and get feedback from others who've been there before. All adds to the experience and knowledge base.

David47
04-24-2017, 01:03 AM
Had a slower weekend this week due to family commitments and couple of cars breaking down. Everything happens in three's so not sure what's next. However, I did decide to tackle the often talked about process of applying Hysol 960. I've read many threads, including Builders Tips and Hints and decided to go with John Pitkin's idea of using syringes. I bought a few capable of holding 100 ml and thought that should be big enough. Well, they were too big as it turns out.

The first bonded rib assembly off the rank was the trimmable tailplane. All ribs were sanded and adjusted in length using conical and cylindrical grinding bits attached to the vertical drill press. The angle on the conical bit proved an excellent way of providing just enough taper on the trimmed LE edge of the ribs to match the angle of the front tube spar. Front and rear tubes were roughed up with 120 grit wet and dry and wiped with isopropyl alcohol after scuff and just prior to adhesive application.

I taped everything off with painter's tape and loaded up the first syringe with about 30 ml for attaching the rib stiffeners - I bonded the rib stiffeners prior to loading the ribs into the assembly. I couldn't believe (a) how much heat is generated by the adhesive during the curing process and (b) how quick this stuff cures. The brew I made got me through bonding the stiffeners I made up but I had about 15 ml left over. I cleaned the syringe (a messy job) and let the bonds set overnight. Next day I located most ribs in place on the assembly, did a mix of about 100 ml thinking this would be about right. Way way too much yet again. Loads of heat generated and the mix seemed to go off even quicker. So the lesson I learned here is, if anything, work out what you think you would need, and then halve it. The photo I've included showing the empty and used syringe gives you an idea of how much I've wasted. From my experience I would say mix no more than 30 to 40 ml at a time, unless you work real fast.

I took JP's advice regarding the syringe outlet nozzle. The standard syringes I bought have about 1/8" diameter opening. I opened it up a bit more (5/32") and the adhesive seemed to flow really well. I got quite a good bead of adhesive, probably about 1/8" surface contact on both the tube and rib. When cured, the painter tape was removed and there was minimal cleanup involved. You have to be careful when positioning the tape adjacent to the bond line because it can actually shield part of the tube from accepting adhesive. So there are a few areas I need to redo.

All in all, not as many hours spent this weekend but I learned heaps about bonding. And as Josh said on his thread, you get better at it the more you do.

About 80 hours total "hands-on" into the build to date.

(I've added a few photos which hopefully give people the idea of what I'm babbling about.) :o

DesertFox4
04-24-2017, 11:33 AM
It looks like you are doing a fine job David. Nice and neat and clean.
Moving at a good pace.

rosslr
04-24-2017, 03:49 PM
Very neat and tidy Dave! Although it takes time to mask everything up, it results a job that pleases the eye - Hysol can get messy! And I agree about your tip re estimating and then halving - I wasted heaps of the stuff by over estimating the quantities. thanks for the updates - interesting to follow. We are off to the Simpson this week ( as soon as the rain passes!) We might call in on our way back if it is a weekend.

cheers

David47
04-25-2017, 03:42 AM
I envy the Simpson Desert trip. Hope you have a great time. Just call and if I'm up there would be great to see you and Gayle again.

papabear
04-27-2017, 12:03 AM
Nice work going on here, keep up the good work mate, don't forget the paperwork.

pb

David47
05-01-2017, 03:57 AM
So I'm getting into this bonding work with more confidence now. This weekend family commitments meant less time of the project again, but then you really have to strike a balance. So I brought the elevator and rudder inside the house (its starting get cold here in Melbourne now) and commandeered a backroom table as the workbench. With my newfound knowledge of working with hysol 9460 I bonded the ribs to both the elevator and rudder. Using the syringes, I'm managing to get a consistent bead of around 1/8" along most bond lines - sometimes it looks a bit ratty but I'm making sure the bond surface is cleaned with Isopropyl alcohol after roughing up and that the bead is contacting both the rib and adjacent tube. For the Elevator, I used a cutoff section of one of my partners facial cream tubes (photo attached - of the tube segment, not her) as a measure. It's about 1 1/4" diameter and about 3/4" high. This mixed just the right amount for the elevator ribs, although I really had to squeeze the syringe to wring the last remnants out and only then, just made it.

Something I'm unsure of with the base of the rudder. The lower-most rib sits just above the lower tube, so when fabric is applied, there'll be a triangular shape to the bottom of the rudder. Has anyone flattened this section off by applying a sculptured foam block as per the rudder tip ?. Not sure whether this is a worthwhile mod or not. Any input gratefully received.

Photos follow.

Dave S
05-01-2017, 06:39 AM
David47,

The first attached photo is how I finished off the bottom of the rudder (not shown, but done before the top coat were the drain holes).....reality - this is an area most people won't notice because of the location, particularly on a tailwheel, so not all that sure most would bother to finish off the bottom.

One part I wanted to finish off more smoothly is the center part of the elevator where the trailing edge tube meets the spar - second photo. This resulted in the fabric having a nice profile on the finished elevator.

colospace
05-01-2017, 07:43 AM
Dave,
If you let the Hysol set up just a few minutes, you can then smooth out the bond fillets with a finger wetted in IPA.

jiott
05-01-2017, 12:33 PM
I agree with Gary, I think most fillets should get finished off with your finger. It not only gives a nice looking consistent fillet (and a messy finger), but pushes the Hysol into all the little cracks and crevices for a good bond. Alcohol does a great job of cleaning up unwanted areas, fingers, etc.

I personally wouldn't spend any time squaring off that triangular area on the bottom of the rudder. Its not seen, and the fabric will conform fine to the triangle.

David47
05-01-2017, 01:16 PM
Dave S, thanks for the photos - the way you've finished off the bottom of the rudder is exactly what I was thinking. But I hadn't thought about finishing of the inboard section of the elevator like that. Very nice job. I'll plagiarise your design, hope you don't mind. So I guess it's back to preschool with the finger in the sticky stuff. Thanks for the input Dave, Gary, Jim, very much appreciated.

David47
05-08-2017, 01:20 AM
Another productive weekend. The weathers starting to get colder here in the southern parts of Australia so we all rug up like Penguins ... I'm still bonding some remaining ribs onto the elevator and started on the fixed fin ribs. Not sure if I've messed up here but the lowermost ribs shown in the manual show two seperate ribs. I think I've sorted it by cutting one of the ribs in two and bonding the sections either side of the t/wheel forward bolt attach point. My concern is that the outside profile of the forward rib is inside the adjacent tube. This doesn't look right to me as when the fabric is wrapped in this area, there'll be a weird crease. The photo shows what I mean. I can fix this by bonding some spare rib stiffener sections either side to get a cleaner fabric line. Anyone come across this before or is it just me ... ?

Set the low fuel warning system tank and hardware in place and lock wired the lowermost fuselage tube in position. Rough cut the seat pans and cut the harness slots. Think I'll put an edging on these as they'll abrade the seat belt material.

Fitted up the rudder f/glass LE and trimmed so that the aft edges fair into the recessed section of the ribs. It all seemed to come together well, with a minimum of gap between the rib LE and the glass LE. Slots for the hinge points aren't cut at this stage. Did the same for the fixed fin glass TE and cut the slots for the rod end hinge points. Probably got a bit over excited using the Dremel and cut the slots a little more than needed, so I'll fill with my now favourite adhesive, Hysol 4960 !. I've included a photo of my over exuberance so that others that come later don't repeat the same mistake (Lowermost cutout shown as its the worst ... I should have just cut enough for the rod end hinge and the rudder stop arms). A question that comes out of this though is the gap between the rudder LE and the fin TE fairings. I'm guessing about 1/8" is quite possible without too much trouble - wouldn't want any less - but typically what are other folks setting this at ?. I'm sure I've seen this discussion elsewhere, just can't recall on who's thread it was.

Other than the Dremel sage and couple of other transgressions, progress is happening without too much drama - so far ....

jiott
05-08-2017, 09:54 AM
As has been mentioned before, the proper gap between the two rudder fiberglass fairings is difficult to do before covering and paint. You will end up with multiple layers of fabric and paint on these surfaces and will probably need more gap than you think. I think the best way is to make a reasonable guess at the gap then don't bother with it until covered and painted. THEN mount the rudder and set the rod ends for proper gap. When all this looks good, THEN trim the steel rudder stop plate for your + & - 25 degree travel. If you trim it before, the travel stops will be too short if you have to increase the gap for clearance.

efwd
05-08-2017, 10:33 AM
AARrggh. The manual says nothing about that but that makes total sense. Too Late.
Wonder if I will have more rudder authority? Actually, I don't even have but one layer of Oratex on the rudder fiberglass leading edge and no fabric in the center of the vertical trailing edge where the tolerance counts. I attributed the need to adjust to simple temperature change. I cant imagine that I had the gap so close that it would not have accommodated that one layer of glue and fabric.
Regarding the fiberglass cutouts, I found I had to enlarge mine so that tools would fit to tighten the attaching hardware. I believe your going to be fine as long as they aren't too small to get a wrench in.
Eddie

rosslr
05-08-2017, 09:45 PM
Hi David,

Don't think anyone has directly answered you question re the bottom rib and having to cut it in 2. Yes, we did too. and yes, the fwd part sits inside the frame. I had a look on ours and when the fabric is on and stretched it just forms a smooth curve - not to worry. I text you a pic of ours.

Jim gives good advice about the rudder - worry about it later! And I cut the angles at that stage too - but there is an easy fix later.

great progress!

cheers

r

David47
05-09-2017, 06:11 AM
Thanks Jim, what you say makes total sense and I'm sure this must have been discussed years earlier ad nauseous .... The setup of the rudder to fin in the manual gives dimensions for the top and bottom hinge points at the stage I'm at right now. I think it would be better to wait as you suggest and get the fabric on and then get the gap set. I can also see how it would be easty to cut the 25 degree angles too soon ..... if you've done that Eddie then looks like Ross has the solution. And I'll do an access test for tools for adjusting the locknuts at the hinge points and fill the excess removal of the fairing using adhesive.

Thanks for the text picture of the lower rib Ross. Good to know it won't look odd.

jiott
05-09-2017, 09:44 AM
You guys using Oratex should have much less problem with the rudder gap changing after cover and paint because the Oratex is much thinner and of course no paint.
Tools for mounting the rudder, what a vivid memory! Its a bear getting those nuts tightened, but very doable with patience. I recall I had to grind some notches on my wrench in order to get enough swing. Fortunately, just slip the bolts in and don't worry about the nuts when you are taking it on and off while adjusting the gap and travel stops.
Some guys go more than the suggested 25 degrees, just so the rudder at full travel doesn't contact the elevator. I see nothing wrong with this approach, getting as much rudder authority as possible. I will say that I used 25 degrees and that gives HUGH rudder authority; I have never wished for more.

jrevens
05-09-2017, 10:20 AM
I agree with Jim - good advice. FWIW, 6000 Oratex isn't really thinner than Poly-Fiber medium, but the end thickness of the Poly-Fiber can vary considerably depending on how much & what type of paint you use of course. There are only 2 layers of Oratex in that area on my rudder - well, 3 actually at the limits of left/right travel. I did mine beforehand, as well as setting the rudder stops, and, probably surprisingly, they ended up being OK.

David47
05-09-2017, 09:04 PM
I think I can see how difficult it would be trying install nuts on those hinge bolts without the +/- 25 Deg rudder movement. I reckon I've got no more than 5 Deg movement either way right now without cutting the stop, so its only possible to install the bolts unless there's a seriously large lateral slot cut into the LE fairing on the rudder. Defeats the purpose of trying to minimise gaps to stop aero leakage .... thanks for the input.

David47
05-15-2017, 03:42 AM
Slower weekend this time around. I had the first visit from my Sports Aircraft Association of Australia (SAAA) Technical Counsellor this weekend. The SAAA are responsible for oversighting build projects that will be registered with a VH- registration (equivalent to "N" Reg in USA) which will allow me to flight test and then fly up to the maximum AUW of 1550 lb under an Experimental Certificate issued by the Australian regulator. The visit was all good some plough on.

Spent quite a bit of time applying the two coats of varnish to the ribs in the empennage. Did that over three days. I needed to not load up the brush so much because this stuff runs all over the place. From other threads, others seem to have had similar experiences. I've got varnish drips hanging off the vertical fin tubes like icicles so a clean up is required.

Installed the parking brake valve assembly to the console temporarily. As an observation, installing the 90 Deg elbows permanently could be interesting because the ports are so close together that the elbows obstruct each other when you turn them to thread them in.

I also sanded the stabiliser bearings down so that they run freely in the hinge bushes with bearing grease. I took up the construction manual suggestion of chucking them in the hand drill and used 120 grit, followed by 240 grit sandpaper to finish them off. I then attempted a trial fit of the stabiliser to the fuselage but ran into an interference issue. The welded fuselage attach brackets appears to be interfering with the weld at the base of the stabiliser mounted hinge, to the point that I can't quite line up the bolt. I'll most likely have to remove some material from the fuselage bracket as I don't want to start grinding away at the excess weld, especially on such a critical attach point. Anyone else have this same issue ?.

Finally, I bonded foam onto the stabiliser, elevator and rudder tips and started rough contouring using 240 grit sandpaper. It looks rough at the moment (several photos attached showing start and finish except for sealing) but Ill probably use the hysol adhesive to seal the foam. I know others have used other filler materials but I'll stick with an IPA wetted finger and Hysol (thanks Gary and Jim) to do the final finish. Hopefully I can sand that to a final smooth finish ok. I've managed to get a reasonably aerodynamic shape at this stage and should be able to wrap the covering around ok when I get to that stage.

Next week I'm planning on starting to build the wing assembly jig, even though I still have stuff to finish off on the fuselage. I can potter along on the remaining fuselage items in parallel with building the wing. I'm happier multi-tasking ....

The wing assy jig will be made from a steel weldment and I'll try and incorporate converting it to a rotisserie for both the wings and the fuselage for when I start the covering process. And then there's the possible future use as a hanger stand for tyre changes and other off the ground maintenance. At least that's the plan ....

jiott
05-15-2017, 09:23 AM
If I am remembering right, don't those stabilizer hinge bushes get pressed in and Locktited in place? The free running part is the bolt thru the center hole I think.

Esser
05-15-2017, 10:45 AM
I'm pretty sure that's what he means. He is sanding the bushing that goes inside the press fit bushing. Creates a type of bearing.

Do you have a picture of where you are getting the interference with the fuselage? I did have to modify the stab so I could ream the hinges before I pressed the bushings.

jrevens
05-15-2017, 12:20 PM
If I am remembering right, don't those stabilizer hinge bushes get pressed in and Locktited in place? The free running part is the bolt thru the center hole I think.

I had to think about that too. Actually, those are pressed in, then another bushing runs inside of them, clamped to the tabs on the elevator with the bolt. No bearing/wear surface rotating against the bolt itself. Typical "sleeve bearing" design.

jrevens
05-15-2017, 12:28 PM
...

Installed the parking brake valve assembly to the console temporarily. As an observation, installing the 90 Deg elbows permanently could be interesting because the ports are so close together that the elbows obstruct each other when you turn them to thread them in.

...

Hi David,

You are making good progress!

If you have a Matco valve, the individual sections are designed so that you can rotate them in relation to each other to allow installation of 90 deg. fittings.

David47
05-16-2017, 02:55 AM
Yes Josh and John, that's correct. The hinge bearings I sanded down are those that rotate within the press fit bushes. I haven't fitted the elevator to the stab yet but I'm assuming the bearings will be slightly longer than the press fit bushes so that on clamp up, the bolt and bearing will be stationary and the elevator press fit bushings will rotate against the inner bearing. So torquing of these nuts and bolts becomes critical to correct functioning of the joint.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the forethought to take a photo of the interference between the stab centre hinge and the fuselage attach bracket. I suspect tolerance stackup is working against me. But I'll take a photo so you can see what I mean.

John, I haven't looked at the branding on the handbrake valve assembly but I'm sure you're right. I'll look a little closer at it.

Thanks for the feedback everyone... much appreciated.

David47
05-28-2017, 11:42 PM
Another productive weekend working on the project. This weekend was concentrated on the door and window frame fabric angles and the empennage access panel angles.

Took quite a bit of “fitting and fettling” to the door frame fabric angles to get them all fitting reasonably well. Sadly my sheetmetal working skills were way better when I did this at secondary school decades ago. Also, it didn't help that the planes of the door frame angles differ at the very point where you also attach the fuselage side stringers. Any ambitions of doing a neat lap joint of the angles didn't work out so I whimped it and made a mitre joint with a bracket connecting the two angles. The end result is quite good and the transition between the two planes should make for a neat fabric layup. The side stringers neatly fit inside this joint and were riveted to the fabric angles. There’s obviously a bit of residual spring in the stringers but that should be partially alleviated when the fabric is applied. I must say there’s a surprising amount of work in getting these angles to fit up, well at least three was for me. It took a good 6-8 hours of fiddling around and wearing a path back to the grinding wheel, vice and file. But the end result is not too bad. Just don’t look too closely at the mitre intersects !.

The empennage access panel attachment angles were made up and scalloped out to enable them to take up the profile of the lower most rib and forward bulkhead. Bonding of the bulkhead in place was not a huge success when it comes to neatness and cleanliness. I used a popsicle stick split down the middle as the application tool. Not a great result so don't look too closely at the mess of Hysol at, in particular, the upper joint. I also used popsicle sticks as shims and standoffs for positioning the bulkhead prior to bonding. They work a treat.

Some photos follow.

Cherrybark
05-29-2017, 06:27 AM
Those window frame pieces were an interesting puzzle and, as you said, took many trips back and forth between the plane and the workbench. I think you did a very nice job.

SuperFill, an epoxy filler and faring product, can be used for finishing the gaps. If that's not readily available, consider West Marine system and their 410 Microlight faring filler. To me, the West system is much nicer to work with than the almost too dry and crumbly SuperFill.


(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/superfil.php?clickkey=20637

jiott
05-29-2017, 02:07 PM
Carl, I'm surprised you find SuperFill dry and crumbly. Maybe your SuperFill is too old and dried out? I find it plenty wet and very easy to use and feather out. In fact, if applied too thick it will tend to sag somewhat before it sets up. I also find it much easier to sand and work down to a feather edge than epoxy finishing resins-they are too hard and tough. Just my experience.

Cherrybark
05-29-2017, 02:34 PM
Maybe I should check and see if there is a date on the SuperFill containers. I guess I shouldn't describe it as crumbly but, even when new, it never really flowed or spread nicely. Now around four months old, stored in a air conditioned environment. Spreads more like a dry wall spackling than a smooth cake icing. First experience with the product and I assumed that was just the way it performed.

jrevens
05-29-2017, 03:13 PM
Carl, I'm surprised you find SuperFill dry and crumbly. Maybe your SuperFill is too old and dried out? I find it plenty wet and very easy to use and feather out. In fact, if applied too thick it will tend to sag somewhat before it sets up. I also find it much easier to sand and work down to a feather edge than epoxy finishing resins-they are too hard and tough. Just my experience.

I agree 100% with you, Jim. I really like SuperFill.

Esser
05-29-2017, 03:41 PM
I'm a huge fan of SuperFil. I just ordered more today! Great to work with. Wet your finger with Alcohol and you can get super close to your final shape before sanding.

David47
05-30-2017, 04:25 AM
Thanks for the feedback folks. I'll look for something similar to Superfil as a filler here in Aus. It'd be nice to have a neatly finished joint, even though it won't be seen after covering. A workmanship thing.

efwd
05-30-2017, 06:43 AM
Well, Im with Carl. I love the finish but try using a plastic spatula to smooth it onto your surface and it will roll and crack open as you move across it. Its not like working with Icing on a cake. I had to apply and build it up to considerably thicker than the finish depth and then knock it down with the sander. Easy enough but your wasting a bit.
Eddie

colospace
05-30-2017, 08:25 AM
I'm in the SuperFil is great stuff camp. In my experience it spreads well although I prefer to use a metal putty knife rather than the plastic spreaders (partially due to them being stiffer). If it wants to "roll" after a few minutes of working, you can wet the blade/spatula with a little IPA. If applied too thick, it will want to sag. It would probably be best to apply multiple thinner coats in that case, but I never seem to have the patience for that. On thicker applications, I have often let it set up for awhile and then use a finger or spatula wetted with IPA to work out the sag. It seems to sand most easily shortly after "cure" and gets a bit harder after several weeks.

David47
06-05-2017, 05:39 AM
Worked on the empennage area exclusively this weekend. There’s a lot of work in the back end and it was time to temporarily assemble everything together to do an initial fit assessment, particularly the gap between the fixed fin and rudder. As it turned out, setting the rudder hinge bearings in accordance with the manual has given a consistent gap down the length of the fin/rudder interface. Haven’t measured it yet but it looks to be around 3/16” or so. Would be interested to know what others have measured theirs at. I haven't bonded the fibre glass fin TE and rudder LE yet so some adjustment is still possible. I’m holding off on cutting the rudder stop arms at this stage, on advice from folks on this site, until after fabric covering. I can understand why now having fitted things up.

I attached the lower struts to the horizontal stab., levelled up the fuselage and then measured from fin tip to a common point on LH and RH sides, per manual instructions, to ensure the fixed stab. was exactly level. Managed to get within 1/16” side to side first time around. More A… than class.

When installing the horizontal stab. actuator, there was interference between the bottom of the actuator and the welded support rod directly below. A photo shows the witness mark, so I needed to file away part of the lower clevis on the actuator to gain clearance (note one washer stayed nicely in place, held by grease). Also, my lifelong friend Terry came by this weekend and sorted an issue that’s been bugging me for a bit, and that was how to tie off the aft end of the two side stringers. I originally lock wired the tubes from one side to the other, and then lock wired them to the adjacent tubes. (see photo). My problem was that over time those wires would start to cut through into the tubes. So he came up with the idea of using some left over angle from the tailplane access cover attach angles, flattening it out and riveting to each tube stringer. Works really well. A blob of Hysol should keep it in place.

Ross and Gayle Rynehart came by this weekend to have a look at the progress. One thing we discussed was the amount of friction in the elevator circuit. I noticed that when I married up the elevator to the stabiliser, it was necessary to prise the elevator spar a bit to fit it up. That will undoubtedly give rise to some of the problem, but I’m going to do a full check of potential friction points throughout the entire circuit. When we uncoupled to the elevator drive rod, there was some friction in elevator movement, but some of that will disappear when I grease the joints. I suspect there’s more in the control system elsewhere so I’ll start chasing that through next weekend. Anyone have the same issue and if so, what was the main source ?. Would be interested to know.

Photos follow.

jiott
06-05-2017, 08:21 AM
I initially had a lot of friction from the big nylon bearing on the control column assembly.Had to work it down until the friction was minimal when the bolts were tightened.

Esser
06-05-2017, 11:53 AM
Mine was the same as Jims

Cherrybark
06-05-2017, 12:19 PM
Same situation with friction on the nylon rudder pedal bearings after the assembly was bolted down. Tackled the problem by "coloring" the bearings with a black permanent marker. Then assemble, bolt and torque into place, and move the rudder pedals a few times to wear away the marker. Remove, dissemble, sand, repeat. Didn't remove much material each pass because I didn't want the bearings to be sloppy, so this takes awhile. In the end the rudder pedal motion was beautifully smooth. Use traditional, non nyloc nuts during the steps or replace with new.

David47
06-12-2017, 04:01 AM
This weekend consisted of finishing off some loose ends and doing a control system friction “audit”.

First off, both the rudder fibre glass LE and the fin TE were bonded in place. There was quite a bit of work that went into finishing these parts to the point of bonding, so it was nice to finally see them attached. I made a much better job of the rudder LE hinge and stop arm cutouts than I did with the fin TE fairing. Just need to not get so excited when using the Dremel, which is a must for this kind of work.

Bonded all the rudder cable ferrules in place after cleaning up the holes with a fine file. This is a messy job as I tended to get adhesive inside some of them so had to use a 3” nail poked through in order to get rid of it.

From last week, I was concerned about the amount of friction I had in the aileron and elevator control circuits, particularly the latter. So I disconnected all actuation rods and checked both elevator idler arms and the aileron bell crank for free rotation. I also checked the control stick cross tube mounting and found a minor amount in the nylon bearing. I loosened off the bolts attaching the nylon block a bit (thanks Jim, Josh and Carl) and that helped. However, the elevator idler arms, in particular had excessive friction so I disassembled both idler arms, re-sanded the bolts, re-reamed the bushes, applied more grease to the bolts and assembled all together. Both idlers now swing freely without any bolt rotation. I did the same for the aileron bell crank and reassembled. Same result. At the same time as friction reduction, I also swapped out all nyloc nuts and bolts at each rotating joint and replaced with shank drilled bolts, castellated nuts and cotter pins.

Without the elevator attached, the amount of friction in the elevator system was considerably reduced, to the point where you could move the control stick with insignificant force. Same result for the aileron. With the elevator attached however, there was a marked increase in friction, although not quite as bad as I had before sorting the idlers. I know this is, in part, due to fitup whereby either the elevator or stabilizer has a slight bow in the spar as I had to lever the two together a tad to get them to align last week. I haven't tried it yet but I suspect some of that will disappear when I grease the hinge point bearings and bolts. Fingers crossed.

Finally, I temporarily attached the main landing gear leg as I’ll need the main and tail wheel gears on to move the fuselage to another shed for painting. What impressed me was the alignment of the gear blocks and the fuselage mounting tubes. I checked the fit of the bolts in both block sets and then in the fuselage mounting tubes independently after reaming the tubes per the manual. To my pleasant surprise the bolts aligned beautifully in all components ( i.e. both blocks and the tubes). Given that the fit of the bolt in each component was a running fit, and only needed a minor amount of tapping with a soft mallet to get everything pulled up, that’s good effort to get such accurate positional tolerancing. Looks to me as though the fuselage weldment jig and the mounting block drill jigs could have been match drilled, which would be a sensible thing to do for such a critical joint. Regardless of how this was achieved, I “dips me hat” to Kitfox for a top effort.

rosslr
06-12-2017, 03:09 PM
Good progress Dave! I admire your patience taking out all the bolts etc but I know this was really annoying you and you would probably never be happy not knowing where the friction was coming from.

Now you have the gear on I bet you cant resist the tyres and tailwheel next weekend!

cheers

r

efwd
06-12-2017, 10:06 PM
Nice work David. I know what its like having the binding. Tonight I had to remove my rudder cross tubes to get at the bushings. PIA. But, my rudders were sticking and it seemed to be getting worse over time. Not sure if temperature changes were the culprit. Anyhow, took the bushings to the drill press and spun them up and shaved some diameter off and polished them up with some 1500 grit sand paper. Work great now.
Eddie

David47
06-13-2017, 03:05 AM
Thanks Ross and Eddie. The time taken to sort these binding issues was well worth it. I probably should have paid more attention to this when I was first fitting them up.

Eddie, my rudder cross tubes are also in my sights for the same reason. Maybe the binding in these rudder bearings is due to temperature change. I have some replacement bearings coming my way from Kitfox shortly - that's another story - but I may subject them to temperature variation and see if there is any discernible diameter change.

And yes Ross, the main tyres and tail wheel gear are next in line !.

David47
06-26-2017, 02:48 AM
A short work weekend this time. Only spent a day on the project because of family commitments and besides, it was quite cold - that is for us here in Australia. I’ve spent the last couple of weeks welding up the jigs for the wing build so they're now finished and ready to go. I bought a laser alignment level and a distance measuring laser so these I can use for setting up the wing jigs and also, I assume, for levelling the fuselage when marrying up the front and rear spar strut attachment fittings.

In order to build the wings, I needed the fuselage out of the way so I temporarily attached the main and tail wheel gear and parked it beside where the wings will be built. Something I noticed when bolting the axles to the spring gear was that the bolts are a good two grip lengths short. There are no thread protrusions beyond the nylon so I’ll be getting longer bolts. Anyone have the same issue ?. Also, I’d like some advice on where I can get some wheel caps. At the moment, the axle and outer bearing are open to taking in dust and grit so I’d like to get a set of wheel caps to provide some protection. Any advice really appreciated.

At the moment, I’m guessing about 3 months to build both wings, excluding covering. That may sound tight to some folks but I’m working at this project about 50 to 60 hours per month on a regular basis. At the moment, actual hands on with the fuselage and empennage has taken about 160 hours or so. I’m basing my wing estimates on that experience. End of September I’ll either be grinning ear to ear, or crawling under a rock …

Now all I need to do is build couple of wings to the “Brandon Standard” and I’ll be a happy camper !. :D

rosslr
06-26-2017, 03:10 AM
Hi Dave - order the hub caps from Kitfox. Either just the hubcaps - in which case you will have to cut off some of the axle. Or order the Kitfox axle logos and then you just have to cut a hole and screw them on.

In India at the moment so smiled at the cold comments!

cheers

r

colospace
06-26-2017, 07:40 AM
Dave, the manual calls out two different length bolts (and my kit came with both). The longer bolts are used for the tail dragger configuration.

David47
06-26-2017, 01:15 PM
Thanks Gary. Was wondering why they were so short. I'll check my kit again.

Ross, yep cold here. Wearing a beanie and a hiviz jumper while working in the shed.

jrevens
06-26-2017, 09:35 PM
Dave, the manual calls out two different length bolts (and my kit came with both). The longer bolts are used for the tail dragger configuration.

David,

I think Gary's talking about the bolts that mount the gear to the fuselage, and you're talking about the ones for the axles to gear. Correct?

David47
06-27-2017, 06:49 AM
Correct John. Checked the gear kit and can't find any longer bolts so will have to order.

Esser
06-27-2017, 12:25 PM
David, you may have to enlarge the bolt access hole on your rudder. Before you cover do a dry run of trying to bolt the rudder to the tail through that slot. I think it would be better to enlarge before covering

David47
06-27-2017, 02:48 PM
Thanks Josh, you're right. Yes, the slots aren't large enough to even get the bolts in. I've still got to cut two vertical slots and then do a trial fit up. Btw, you're coming on nicely with your build. Been following for quite some time.

Esser
06-27-2017, 05:42 PM
Thanks! Nice to see you progressing too. It's been a slow burn over the years for sure. Guys like Scott Noble and Ross have started after me and have many hours flying but it's slowly ticking down. I'm painting the struts and some misc. stuff on Thursday and then hopefully next week I will get the wings on.

rosslr
06-28-2017, 07:00 PM
Yes, but we didnt make a major career change in the middle of it all Josh and embark on major training! I think you are making remarkable progress gien your moves and changes! Not long now!

cheers

r

David47
06-29-2017, 04:52 AM
It might be a slow burn for you, but you're juggling job changes, major moves which take some time to aclimatise so not surprising. I'm semi retired and have way more time so I can focus. Hope the spray booth works out.

David47
07-17-2017, 01:01 AM
Spent the last couple of weekends working on the fuselage door transparencies and then setting up the wing jig and starting the build of the starboard wing.

I trimmed the door transparencies to the inside line of the door frame cutout, leaving about a 3 to 4 mm gap (.125” to .16”) gap all round. This seems about right as when the “P” seal is attached to the inside of the panel, it'll need some gapping to extrude into when the door is closed. At the moment the trim line is roughed in so I’ll need to clean it up with a fine file. A Dremel with a mini disc cutter is perfect for doing the rough cutting as many other builders on the site have said already. I’ll take time in assembling the door frame to the transparencies because getting the doors to seat and seal properly is, I think, worth any extra effort needed to achieve a good fit. I’ve also been reading other builders threads (Eddie, Josh, John E, Carl) and am aware of some of the issues that come up when drilling brittle plastics. Some builders have referred to Rivnuts being used in lieu of cap nuts for attaching the transparencies. I thought Rivnuts were a commercial name for a particular brand of rivet, so not quite sure what I’m missing. At the moment, I haven’t decided whether to use the s/steel screws and cap nuts supplied with the kit or try something different. Still thinking that through.

Although there are still areas on the fuselage still to complete, I’ve decided to take a break from that for a while and dive into starting the wing builds. So I set up my jig and measured everything with laser levels etc and had a friend of mine check it before I started building the starboard wing. Right at the beginning I had a major disaster within the first 60 minutes which, without going into detail, cost me in a $ sense for a really stupid decision. I have a work around but it dents the ego a bit when you make such a lousy call, especially as I’ve been in this business 45+ years and should have known better. Anyway, I’ve started the first wing build and it’s proceeding well. Both spar inserts have been cut and located inside the front and rear spars. They slipped in quite nicely without having to remove any material. Both the insert and the spar interiors were alodined first (alodine 1201) using the tennis ball end plug approach before they were installed and then the insert riveted in place in accordance with the manual (excluding rivets in the wing strut fitting no-go zones). Both spars were then internally primed using epoxy primer, again using the tennis ball end plug method. Works well with a lot of tilting, wobbling, shaking, rotating and any other movement that comes to mind at the time.

As an aside, before riveting the rear spar insert in place, I located the 4 ribs within the area of the insert at their respective wing stations and then riveted the inserts in place. This allowed me to slide these ribs on first without having to notch the rib spar hole cutout to allow rivet heads to clear, because its a very close fit. Just saved a bit of work. Finally, primed the drag braces and mating fittings and started to rivet them in place. Used a silicon compound as a barrier material at the fitting to spar faying surface. It was good to stand back at the end of each day and see a good result :D .... with one exception. :eek:

Brandon Petersen
07-17-2017, 04:33 AM
Good day David! Fantastic you're making progress on the wings....my favorite part! Just curious why the spars say bottom but are facing up?

David47
07-17-2017, 07:21 PM
Good day David! Fantastic you're making progress on the wings....my favorite part! Just curious why the spars say bottom but are facing up?

Hey Brandon, yep started the first wing build. I agree, it's probably more satisfying doing the wings because you build them from the ground up. Having said that, I'm more than comfortable to have the fuselage assembly prewelded by aircraft quality welders.

Why do the spars say bottom but are facing up ?. "I come from a land down under" - everything is upside down to us .. !. No, real reason is I hadn't removed some of the earlier ink markings.

Hope Kitfox have a successful Oshkosh visit.

Cherrybark
07-17-2017, 07:46 PM
David, please keep posting photos of your wing build. Brandon did that job for me with the factory "quick build" package. It will be interesting to watch what I missed.

Here is a picture of Rivnuts. They are a type of rivet but the hollow interior is threaded. The special rivet gun has an assortment of "bolts" that screw into various size rivets. Squeeze the gun and the rivet expands to lock into place. The rivnut and machine screw are not exposed on the inside of the airframe - giving a neater appearance. Downside - rivnuts can sometimes spin in place and how do you drill out something that spins? I used rivnuts because I already had the tool. Otherwise I wouldn't have hesitated to use thru bolts and castle nuts.

https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Alloy-Rivnut-Tool-Insert/dp/B0012K7LUO

David47
07-18-2017, 06:25 AM
Carl, yep will keep posting photos of the wing build. And thanks for the info on the Rivnuts. Looking at the pictures from the link, they do look vaguely familiar now.

jiott
07-18-2017, 09:21 AM
On my bubble doors, I used the acorn/blind nuts that came with the kit. However, you must be very careful not to tighten them much beyond hand tight. To lock them in place (NEVER use a Loctite product-it will react with the acrylic and cause it to crack) I used a drop of Elmers Glue; haven't had a single one come loose in 4 years now.

David47
07-18-2017, 04:05 PM
Yes Jim, I'm leaning more to using the kit supplied s/steel screws and cap nuts.

Question: does anyone know if the bubble transparency can be installed directly to the standard door frame or do you need a different door frame ?. Just looking at future options ...

jiott
07-18-2017, 04:19 PM
I'm pretty sure its the standard door frame for the bubble doors. I really like the bubble doors for the extra shoulder room and the ability to lean your head to the side and look straight down.

efwd
07-18-2017, 08:07 PM
I agree. likely the same frame. The bubble contacts the frame all the way around and the bubble extends out away from the center tube.
Eddie

David47
07-19-2017, 06:13 AM
Thanks guys, I think that's a future option for a retrofit. I like the idea of extra shoulder room.

David47
07-30-2017, 04:30 AM
Been doing more work on the starb’d wing this week. Finished installing the drag braces and then located all full ribs and bonded them in place. I’ve used blue painters tape liberally either side of the ribs to prevent too much adhesive spreading all over the place and instead of a siringe, I used a popsicle stick split down the middle for applying it, and then a finger for pushing the adhesive into a fillet. This works great but you need plenty of IPA to keep working it. Very happy with the final result.

At this point I wish I’d varnished the ribs before I bonded the upper false ribs in place. I’m just reinforcing what others have said already on this site when I say if you’re building your wings, varnish the full ribs before you bond any false ribs in place. With the false ribs in place it makes it difficult, but not impossible, to get to all parts of the full ribs without doing a few distortions with the hand and brush. An “S” bend in the hand would be good …. I’m just thankful I hadn’t bonded the lower ribs in place as well. Don't even want to think of that scenario ….

As with the full ribs, I used liberal amounts of blue tape to prevent adhesive from going every whichaway when bonding the upper false ribs. I found the best way of bonding was to lay a bead of adhesive down the front spar and then a dab on the supporting tube, and then just push the rib in place. This worked great - it’s quick, no mess, no extra finishing of the fillet required and the end result is neat and tidy. I was, however, a little concerned about how much adhesive (ie not a lot) was holding the rear end of the rib to the tube, so when the adhesive had set, I gripped it and pulled quite hard. Didn’t budge. You can probably see from the photos how little there is. It’s a little over 1/8” square contact area either side in some cases, but that’s enough. This Hysol is impressive.

Varnishing of the ribs is quite a performance. I laid down plastic under the wing because the varnish is runny. It probably took around 2 1/2 hours to do one coat. Needed a beer or three after that, and no better way to finish up a good couple of days work. Looking back at the build to date, this wing build is probably the most gratifying part so far.

efwd
07-30-2017, 08:44 AM
Very nice David. Looks great.
I am one who put all the false ribs in before I primed the metal parts. Yes they definitely get in the way.
By the way, FWIW, you should consider the hysol double barrel syringe and the blue gun to match the syringe. I didn't do half the amount of hysol work that your doing and I don't regret it for a minute. You may be able to refill the syringe with the product you have to that doesn't go to waist. I waisted quite a bit of that stuff by mixing more than was needed.
Eddie

David47
07-30-2017, 04:17 PM
Eddie, if you can point me to a supplier of these double barrel syringes and gun that'd be great. Working with cutdown popsicle sticks and manual mixing of adhesive is so old school, anything that makes life simpler is good.

efwd
07-30-2017, 08:30 PM
Start with Kitfox. They are one supplier. It is in the online Catalog

Av8r3400
07-31-2017, 08:15 PM
I got all of my Hysol (Loctite 9460) through RS Hughes (http://www.rshughes.com).

The gun and the "double barrel" syringes.

efwd
07-31-2017, 08:37 PM
Don't forget the mixing tips. they are not included with the barrel.
Eddie

jiott
08-01-2017, 01:28 PM
I thought I could get by without the gun, but trying to push the two plungers thru the mixing tip with my thumb proved almost impossible.

efwd
08-01-2017, 07:10 PM
What I really liked was the fact that when you stopped pulling the trigger, the flow of hysol stopped as well. Put the cap back on and only waist whats in the mixing tip.

David47
09-04-2017, 12:41 AM
Its been a while since I posted so thought I'd get off my butt and contribute.
The LH wing is complete except for instal of the LLE option and fuel tank, and I've started the RH wing. Rudder cables have been swaged for both seat positions (I have dual controls in this) and I'll also be installing turnbuckles. I've made up two access panels for the rear fuselage below the horizontal stab. and these will be located directly adjacent to where the rudder cable turnbuckles will be and will also allow good access to inspect the lower bolt and hardware holding the horizontal stab. trim actuator. All nyloc nuts have been swapped out for castellated nuts on all rotating joints in control systems. I bought Hoerner wing tips for this beast so I've fitted the nav light standoffs and am making my own landing light/wig-wag light instal. So far so good. Some in-process photos are attached. Ignore the ugliness of the wingtip standoff fibreglassing - didn't have a photo of it sanded down ...!

efwd
09-04-2017, 07:17 AM
Looking great David. Funny how much room there seems to be under the center console at that stage. It fills up fast. I put the engine mount bolt in yesterday and was quite irritated by the end of it.
Eddie

rosslr
09-04-2017, 02:21 PM
Hi David,

great progress! And a really neat job too! keep in mind we have our flyin up hear on the 25th November if interested. I'm sure we can arrange some Kitfox time too!

cheers

DesertFox4
09-04-2017, 04:44 PM
Good progress and nice workmanship David. Like the access panel location.
Am I the only one that thinks an uncovered Kitfox wing is a thing of beauty?:)

efwd
09-04-2017, 09:29 PM
Not at all Steve. I considered hanging mine from my living room ceiling as Art Deco. It looked so good on the garage ceiling.
Eddie

David47
09-05-2017, 05:51 AM
Looking great David. Funny how much room there seems to be under the center console at that stage. It fills up fast. I put the engine mount bolt in yesterday and was quite irritated by the end of it.
Eddie

Yes, I've seen some photos of other projects in the console area and it looks real crowded .... won't be long before I'm into running systems through there.

David47
09-05-2017, 05:52 AM
Good progress and nice workmanship David. Like the access panel location.
Am I the only one that thinks an uncovered Kitfox wing is a thing of beauty?:)

A thing of beauty they are indeed Steve. Don't mind building them either !.

David47
09-05-2017, 05:58 AM
Hi Ross, I may be in the UK in November, not sure yet. If not, I'll be there with bells on ..... However, in 2018 I'll be flying there in a new aeroplane !! :D

David47
10-15-2017, 02:42 AM
I haven't posted for quite a while so thought it about time. I've been very busy building wings. And this weekend was a milestone. Matched up the wings to the fuselage. The weather has been dry where I'm building so no rain about because I needed to assemble it outside - not enough room in the shed to do it there. As most of you know, lots of tweaking to get angles right, especially getting everything level, and then heart in mouth as you drill off the wing to fuse attach bolt holes. Fortunately, things went ok so wings are off again and now I'm getting down to installing leading edges, fuel tanks, pitot/static etc.

I have a general question regarding covering: I haven't done fabric covering before, but have access to a good instructional video, the PolyFibre handbook and of course the Kitfox build manual. Did those of you who have covered your aircraft attend courses or did you get enough from the instructional material you had available ?. I'm just tossing up whether it's worth trying to get some hands on before I launch into doing it myself.

rosslr
10-15-2017, 03:56 AM
Great Milestone Dave! We will try and fly out to check it out again before the end of the year but things are getting busy! As for the Polyfibre covering - we attended a polyfibre workshop at Temora but that doest happen and the company that did it has ceased to operate. Gayle and I would be happy to come out and show you a few tricks to get you started if you like - it mostly just getting used to the way the different glues work and how to work corners and apply tapes - like most of the project, you just get good at doing it when the job is over!

A couple of suggestions -

buy boxes of disposable gloves
get a good respitrator
buy extra MEK from the likes of Blackwoods
Follow the instructions in the polyfibre handbook closely
get a good teflon based iron
buy an infrared thermometer off ebay
.........

happy to share what we learnt and do a few practices with you when you are ready if that would help.

hers

r

Flybyjim
10-15-2017, 05:44 AM
I wanted to add this covering system for you to consider. I have covered 5 planes over the last 18 years and I have found this system to work well for me. Exceptional finish with 1/2 the time of using Polyfiber and much less weight. My Kitfox will be covered with this system through the primer and top coating or I might use PPG top coatings. Just another thought.

ABOUT SUPERFLITE

Superflite introduced the aviation community to the first all-urethane aircraft covering process. It was functional and long-lasting with a superior end result. Since that time, there have been upgrades, and with System 7, we have a system for every type of user in every type of climate.

As you shop for your next aircraft covering project, consider Superflite for your fabric and finish. We have what you need to get the award-winning finish you want.
Jim

DesertFox4
10-15-2017, 09:10 AM
Good work Dave. Drilling those holes are an important step.
Ross gave you great tips.
Having someone who has gone through the process help you get started is a nice confidence booster. You'll quickly learn how easy the process is and likely it will be one, if not the, funnest and most rewarding parts of the build.

jrevens
10-15-2017, 09:24 AM
You’re making great progress, Dave! I like the use of the hoist to support the wing while fitting it... I hadn’t thought of that. I had taken a Poly Fiber course also, and it was helpful but not completely applicable since I used the Oratex. Ross’s generous offer sounds like something that would be very good.

David47
10-15-2017, 01:04 PM
Thanks Jim, Steve and John. It's been a fun trip so far and I'm thoroughly enjoying doing it ...... the covering is the only area so far where I'm a bit doubtful. Jim, thanks for the information on Superflight, but I'm locked in to using Polyfibre but maybe for the next project !.

Ross, great advice and very welcomed. Thanks. I'm coming to the Mt Beauty flyin so I'll bend yours and Gayles ear about your expertise !!

avidflyer
10-15-2017, 04:56 PM
I've also done a number of airplanes with poly fiber, and it really is fairly easy to do. Especially if you have a bit of hand's on advice like Rossir offered. Start with the tailfeathers, they are a good place to learn going around corners and such, and if you don't like what it looks like, it's not that big a deal to peal it off and do it over. The wings are real easy to do, pretty much every thing is straight. You do get to learn how to rib stich though. :-) JImChuk

David47
10-16-2017, 12:24 PM
Thanks Jim. Sounds like if you mess up you have a second chance .... that takes a bit of the heat off.

David47
01-21-2018, 12:23 AM
So I've been busy doing stuff the last 3 months. In particular, both wing substructures finished and started covering, using Polyfiber. Ross gave me some good advice on what I needed and then I got a copy of the EAA video on fabric covering by Polyfibre. The video, and the Polyfibre manual are excellent. I also took advice from John Evens posts and bought a Toko ski iron. Really useful little iron, and stated accuracy is spot on. Checked temperature variations at 250F and 320F (the highest it can achieve) according to the user manual and they are bang on. So jumped in at the deep end and started the wing straight off. Before I did though I made access panels and surrounds for the fuel tank area and for both wing strut/wing joints. These will give really good access to the strut fittings for inspection. I've also made the surrounds at the strut penetrations a little wider so that I can incorporate strut/wing fairings in the future if I want. Total weight added by these access panels, including attach hardware is about 1lb - not a big price to pay for the benefits. I used commercial grade aluminium alloy for all this stuff as it's non-structural. Anyone currently building that wants details happy to share dimensions etc. I also incorporated additional stiffening into the trailing edge. Started installing brake lines, incorporating extension panels to the baggage area and because I'm installing a Lyc engine, I'm currently assessing the best place for the battery down the backend. Then, its on to the mysteries and dark arts of installing electrics and electronics. My panel will be a mix of the old and the new. I've bought an 8.5" MGL iEFIS with engine RDAC, V6 radio and Trig Xpdr. The panel layout is designed and the Airmaster CSP with Whirlwind blades is about to be ordered. And to finish it off, I'm probably heading to Oshkosh this year with another aviation friend I went through Uni with.

Esser
01-21-2018, 07:22 AM
Looking good David. The wings are the most fun to cover. The small control surfaces are the worst. It’s going to look like an airplane soon!

Mcgaero
01-21-2018, 03:19 PM
Nice work David, your making great progress!

Clark in AZ
01-21-2018, 04:38 PM
Very nice! Thanks for posting the pics. Love to be able to see the work!

Clark

David47
03-13-2018, 02:14 AM
A bit more progress has been made over the summer break. The temperatures have been in the mid to high 30's C where I'm building and the shed has become a regular sweat box, even with fans blasting away. But I've covered the RH wing now and the fixed horizontal stab. I agree with Josh in that the stab was by far the hardest surface to cover so far. Getting the fabric to conform around the curves takes a bit of jiggery pokery but I managed it in the end. I've also laid down the Magnetometer and pitot/static lines - but I have a question:

This has probably been discussed before but has anyone experienced EME effects from running the shielded 22 swg wires for the magnetometer close by the shielded wires from a wig/wag and landing light system ?. I'm not planning on putting any joins in any of the wires. As I'm about to fabric cover the LH wing, which is where all this stuff is, just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

On the fuselage, I've fitted up the firewall and cowl which took way more work than I thought - I've sealed most of the joints with an exhaust system putty which hopefully will act as a seal against any CO ingress to the cockpit. At least that's the theory ....

Next up will be a temporary install of the engine to get some measurements for an Airmaster CSP prop system which I'll be installing and then onto the windshield and Turtledeck, which I plan on modifying into a two piece ala the John Evens or even the REvens mod by Ross !. It's all starting to look like something that might actually get to fly this year !!. Says he hopefully ...

rosslr
03-13-2018, 03:21 AM
Nice update Dave - I appreciate the resilience you have shown in continuing through the hot months! We hope to make another trip out your way soon so will give you a call and hope we can co-ordinate and catch up.

I think flying this year is a great target!!

cheers

r

Flybyjim
03-13-2018, 04:26 AM
Why did you run the wires on the outside of the spars and not through the spars?

PapuaPilot
03-13-2018, 06:31 AM
You should not have any EME problems if you run full lengths of shielded cable from the cockpit to the wingtips. Out at the wingtip you will want to have the greatest distance possible between he magnetometer and other electrical stuff.

I ran my wing wiring through the rear spars without any wing root connector. If I ever need to remove a wing I will just need to disconnect the magnetometer, nav and landing lights and then I can pull the cable out of the spar.

Esser
03-13-2018, 08:34 AM
Yep for your lights, full shielded wire and grounded at the firewall, not the tip

David47
03-13-2018, 06:13 PM
Why did you run the wires on the outside of the spars and not through the spars?

After I stood back and looked at the whole picture again (ie second thoughts), I think I will run the mag. wires through the rear spar. My original thought was to try and separate them as far as possible from the wig/wag/landing lights, but it sounds like it should be ok. Thanks for the input guys.

aviator79
03-13-2018, 06:39 PM
Looks great David. I enjoyed covering the wing. It's neat to see it going from being a bunch of wood and aluminum to an honest-to-god wing.

David47
03-14-2018, 05:28 AM
Looks great David. I enjoyed covering the wing. It's neat to see it going from being a bunch of wood and aluminum to an honest-to-god wing.

Agree. But I’ve taken time out to do the firewall and cowl before tackling the LH wing. Breaks it up and gives a bit of variation from covering.

aviator79
03-14-2018, 06:47 AM
Agree. But I’ve taken time out to do the firewall and cowl before tackling the LH wing. Breaks it up and gives a bit of variation from covering.

John suggested this approach to me when I was in Idaho, and after getting a wing done, I'm also glad to be doing it this way. Covering is satisfying, but it's a lot of work, and a lot of solvent fumes. It's nice to be back to something else for a bit.

David47
03-19-2018, 10:56 PM
I spent the weekend fitting up the windshield, coaming panel and instrument panel. The windshield needed a bit of trimming along the sides where it tucks into the door frame sill on both sides. I also needed to get the heat gun out and go to work flattening out the rear corners as they'd curled up quite a bit. Not a problem now. The most intricate part of this whole exercise was fitting up the coaming panel. It took a fair bit of tweeking and trimming to get it seating well, and then some dexterity in handling and then bonding the forward tangs to the windshield - even with the boot cowl off I found it difficult to hold 3 things at once, drill holes and/or bond stuff. I've installed anchor nuts around the perimeter of the boot cowl so that it will be fully removable and fortunately, when I fitted the boot cowl to the windshield, lessons learned from reading other threads told me to ensure a good fit between the two. I have a very good fit but need to come up with a sealing solution that doesn't need redoing every time I remove the cowl. I've also trimmed the coaming panel so that I have a 2" overhang of the instrument panel in the middle, tapering to about 1/2" at the lower edge. I'll wait until the instrument panel is installed with all instruments and the screen in before I decide whether to trim it back or not. I have 3" thick seats and on my first trial at sitting in the seat, there is potential for couple of instruments being slightly obscured. All up, a very satisfying weekend, with grateful help from a lifelong friend Terry (TJ).

rosslr
03-20-2018, 05:07 AM
Great progress Dave! My only comment is that I not sure you should have flattened out those curled up corners! They have a purpose when folding the wings - but I suspect you were joking?!

Anyway, you are making great progress. Wont be too long now!

cheers

r

David47
03-20-2018, 05:22 AM
Ross, I was worried about the curled corners flapping like a butterfly !!. Still got quite a bit to do but really enjoyed covering the RH wing. Very satisfying to see a finished assembly. The tunnel is long as you know, but there’s a faint indication of light ...

Cherrybark
03-20-2018, 05:43 AM
Wow David, that's a huge amount of work over a weekend. The firewall / cowling is coming up quickly here. I need to read a few build threads to learn how this all goes together. Right now these big pieces of fiberglass look pretty rough. Your pictures look great!

airlina
03-20-2018, 06:09 AM
Dave, I think you Aussies have some kind of elves that show up in the middle of the night to work on your airplanes! I remember the fast progress that Ross made on his as well -looking good and at this pace you be chasing Roos in notime. Bruce N199CL

aviator79
03-20-2018, 06:51 AM
Looks really great Dave! Your build log has been really helpful to me. At the rate you work, you'll stay well ahead of me, and I'm happy to let you blaze the trail before me.

efwd
03-20-2018, 08:11 AM
It appears in the photo that you did in fact flatten the aft corners of the Acrylic. You are likely going to need to bend them back up or they are going to be obstructing the wing as it folds back. I Understand the concern as when I received mine the first thing I did was call the manufacturer to inquire about the bent up corners. It might help people out if they would mention it in the instructions.

colospace
03-20-2018, 08:48 AM
Wow, you are flying already (without leaving the ground). I'm going to blame my much slower progress on our thinner air in Denver.
I would be curious about what you come up with for sealing your boot cowl. It does look like you have a nice smooth top edge to your firewall that should make it much easier than it would be with the fluted factory edge on my firewall.

David47
03-20-2018, 07:05 PM
Thanks Carl, Bruce and Brian. We've trained the local Wombats to work while we're all asleep !. But seriously, this windshield, boot cowl, coaming and firewall assembly had been bothering me for some time because I could see how it was all inter-related. So I did a lot of reading of the manual, staring at the parts and reading other builder threads. Once you understand how the whole thing goes together, you can pre-empt what the downstream effect will be when you fit stuff together and it's not quite right. My first priority was making sure the boot cowl would mate against the windshield given that other builders seemed to have gapping there. I didn't want that so that took some juggling.

Gary, I have a separate angle that is notched which you then position to form to the profile of the boot cowl. The manual advises you to not match drill the angle to the firewall until you have the boot cowl in place. This allows you to match the cowl profile really well. So maybe you could make up a separate angle, notched to match the profile and then match drill ?

Ross and Eddie. So the curved back corners are required !. Blimey, as Eddie said, nothing the manual about that .... so I guess I need the heat gun again ... I actually thought this was just a manufacturing process effect. :eek:

rosslr
03-20-2018, 07:24 PM
Hi fellow wombat master!

What's a little bend here or there!? In fact, now that you have mastered the bending of the back corners you could use the amount of curve as trim tabs to get it to fly straight and level......

cheers

r

PaulSS
03-20-2018, 07:30 PM
Ahhh, the secret is revealed!! I've often wondered why it takes so long to get anything done in WA and why it's known as 'Wait A-While'. Now I know.....no wombats :)

David47
03-21-2018, 04:19 AM
Ahhh, the secret is revealed!! I've often wondered why it takes so long to get anything done in WA and why it's known as 'Wait A-While'. Now I know.....no wombats :)

I’ll have a quiet word to the Wombat union rep and see if he can’t arrange something for you ....:D

Flybyjim
03-21-2018, 04:40 AM
Where is Davids builders log located, I looked on this site photo logs, did not see it?

Paul Z
03-21-2018, 04:42 AM
I surprised the Wombats can do so much work without leaving more scratches, and not having an opposable thumb should be slowing them down. Those buggers have some pretty gnarly looking front claws.

aviator79
03-21-2018, 06:30 AM
Where is Davids builders log located, I looked on this site photo logs, did not see it?

If you're talking about my reference earlier, I was just referring to this thread.

David47
03-21-2018, 01:01 PM
I surprised the Wombats can do so much work without leaving more scratches, and not having an opposable thumb should be slowing them down. Those buggers have some pretty gnarly looking front claws.

My favourite Aus native animal. Tough as they come.

efwd
03-21-2018, 01:04 PM
I could sure use a wombat right now. Im up against a wall on my electrical wiring. Im very slow to tackle this.
Eddie

PaulSS
03-21-2018, 06:24 PM
Wombats are more your mechanical engineers. For electrics you need 'roos :D

(They've got longer, thinner arms so they can reach further into the panels and looms)

David47
04-08-2018, 12:37 AM
Time for some more building confessions. Spent the whole of Easter fabric covering the LH wing (I have a very understanding partner - thankfully) .... the RH wing I'd covered earlier in the year. I've included a few photos of the process along the way, more for new builders than the folks that have been there before. My build space gets very messy during this stage because there ain't much time to push a broom when you have various adhesives and other compounds that go off in higher temperatures so there's stuff on the floor that normally isn't there. So after this weekend just gone, both wings are now covered and just need the 96 coats of polybrush and polyspray to complete ... and then only before the final paint scheme .... Maybe I should have looked at Oratex after all !!. :D

This weekend, I also fitted up the engine and trimmed the lower cowl to suit. I had a friend over to help and he put together aluminium alloy trays for the fuselage aft of the baggage bay. Somewhere down that way I'll be mounting the battery, and maybe a backup ... not sure about that yet. I'm also looking at putting on a T3 tailwheel kit with a twin fork 8" Matco or something similar as I plan on doing mostly outback or bush flying. But I'll have to do some preliminary weight and balance to make sure I don't drag the empty weight CG too far aft. Just out of curiosity, has anyone weighed their wings (covered) and fuselage (covered) as individual assemblies before final spray painting ?. If someone else has done so, would appreciate some weights, otherwise I'll try and rig up something myself.

rosslr
04-08-2018, 02:12 AM
Great progress Dave - it's looking good! Didn't weigh parts individually so can't help put there. We'll have to make another visit soon but I'm in Perth this week and then Bali for 2 weeks so looks like May/June.

It's great to see the engine fit up - and the extended baggage tray is 'solid' - what do you plan carrying back there??

cheers

ross

ken nougaret
04-08-2018, 05:02 AM
David,
I dont know if your 233 (and t3 double fork) is heavier than my o200 (and standard tail wheel), but i initially planned my odessey battery for the tail and it moved the cg too far aft. I ended up putting it behind the seat and my 58lb tail is perfect.

David47
04-08-2018, 05:42 AM
Thanks Ken. The O-233 weighs 210 lb, but I don't know the weight of the O-200. But I think your number of 58lb on the tailwheel resonates because I think others have come up with similar numbers. So maybe that's a good guide at this stage.

aviator79
04-08-2018, 07:28 AM
Looks awesome David! Keep the pictures coming, they really are helpful to other builders.

jrevens
04-08-2018, 09:40 AM
You’re making great progress, David! It looks really good to me!

David47
04-08-2018, 03:24 PM
It's great to see the engine fit up - and the extended baggage tray is 'solid' - what do you plan carrying back there??

cheers

ross

Plan on using the extended baggage area as patient transport, competing with RFDS !! ... :D . Back to the real world: Made it longer as a “just in case” I want to carry longer items, like a mountain bike, beach fishing rods etc.

David47
04-23-2018, 06:46 PM
Had a week off to gather my sanity and then launched into it again. (our place is like Grand Central Station sometimes ...). Spent the weekend finish taping the HS, and then covered the elevator and rudder. Fabric forming around the relatively tight radii of these surfaces is challenging, but with the help of a good EAA video and the Polyfibre book, all seemed to work ok. There's the odd wrinkle here and there, but the small iron seems to get rid of most. Also, the bias tape I've found to be really good. It forms really well with no wrinkles. The most difficult part of these surfaces was the base of the rudder. Took me some grey matter time and several cups of coffee to decide what to do, which was just cover it without any foam blocks and Hysol. If I held my head at the right angle, held my tongue out and crossed my eyes (i.e. my normal appearance) it seemed to work out.... One mod I did decide to make though is to incorporate a removable plug at the base of the leading edge. I'm yet to decide what it'll be made of and how it'll be attached but it's a backup for when, not if, I drop a bolt, nut or washer when installing or removing the rudder. So that's a JIC mod. I also started cutting holes in the Instrument panel. Mine will be a mix of the old and the new, with the old being a backup ASI and ALT. The new is the MGL Light 8.5" screen with V6 Tx/Rx, Trigg Tpdr and a Garmin 795 GPS in the middle. I've also started making mounting structure for external cameras which I plan to use for private (and Team Kitfox) video's. These'll be fitted with cameras installed as part of my flight testing program.

rosslr
04-23-2018, 07:48 PM
Great progress Dave - its all starting to come together now!

By end of year both you and Ben should be flying - that will be fun to meet up for some adventures!

cheers

r

Mcgaero
04-23-2018, 11:13 PM
Sounds like you have a good handle on the fabric work now! Making great progress!
Looking forward to a 3 formation of Kitfox adventures

David47
04-24-2018, 01:24 AM
Yep Ross, looking forward to flying adventures. I'm heading to Stick and Rudder early July for some handling familiarisation and couple of Ranch overnights for some back country flying. And then off to Oshkosh ... as you do.

Ben, the fabric covering has come together ok. I took the advice from some other builders on the site and split up the work by doing other stuff in between. Breaks the monotony. Having said that though, thoroughly enjoying the process and it'll be really good to see it finished, ready for painting. I've got several colour schemes in mind, just not sure which one to jump on, although yellow/orange and black with some striping is starting to firm as favourite - today. :D

rosslr
04-24-2018, 02:13 AM
Nice Dave - We will be the colourful ones with our battle ship grey protector flying alongside... very nice battle ship grey though...

get a wiggle on you too!

r

PaulSS
04-24-2018, 03:18 AM
I tell you, he's making it for me. I'm ex-Royal Navy; why else do you think he's painting it that colour (and making a magnificent job of it to boot) :)

rosslr
04-24-2018, 03:49 AM
Good luck with that Paul!

By the way , how is your build going?? (I am sure Dave wont mind the little diversion on his thread for a fellow Ozzie)

r

PaulSS
04-24-2018, 06:47 AM
My build will be nothing like you guys. I won't even be allowed to pretend I've built an aircraft as most of it is final assembly. The Eurofox comes beautifully covered and painted from the factory in Slovakia and then rank amateurs, myself being the rankest, are allowed to do the the other 51%. I go to the factory and get taught how to cover but I'm hoping the guys there don't actually let me touch anything. Seeing as how they factory-build these for the rest of the world I think they might just have the upper hand and know what they're talking about.

I had to push my delivery date back due to personal reasons but I'm expecting to take delivery in (probably) Oct. I can then go about gluing on engines etc. I am quite pleased with my panel design and the infrastructure to complete it. I think I've designed a pretty good electrical system (that varies from the standard way of doing things) and think I'll have a simple-looking, yet very capable bunch of avionics. I've bought all the kit I need, have designed my MGL screens and really just need to crack on with it.

In the meantime I've almost bought a bit of land to build a hangar. Got planning permission to do so and now have to go through the red tape of building a simple steel shed in England. I really need to export a WA concreters for a week or so and get done in two days what the English lot are claiming will take considerably longer.....read a LOT more $$$s :(

Luckily I've got a brand new RV8 that a mate of mine is trusting me to test within the next couple of months. He's a very trusting soul (and an excellent builder of aircraft) and I've got to bone up on Dynon stuff and forget my MGL stuff for a while :)

Tundra tyres on an RV8 and playing around with the East Coast Kitfox posse could be fun :eek:

aviator79
04-24-2018, 06:50 AM
Do you have any pictures of tips for doing the bottom of the rudder? I wasn't planning on adding additional fairing material down there. I don't believe they do it on the LSAs. and I think it looks cleaner to maintain the fuselage line down the rudder. I was planning on wrapping the left side fabric all the way around and gluing it to the top of the bottom rib, and then bringing the right side fabric up and putting the seam along the left edge of the rib. My concern is that there isn't a lot of internal structure under the overlapping seam, but I'm not sure how else to do it.

colospace
04-24-2018, 01:25 PM
David, here's what I did. Just some powder coated aluminum sheet with a couple of screws into a couple of clip nuts on the rib. And yes, I did drop a few fasteners while installing the rudder.

David47
04-24-2018, 04:29 PM
Do you have any pictures of tips for doing the bottom of the rudder? I wasn't planning on adding additional fairing material down there. I don't believe they do it on the LSAs. and I think it looks cleaner to maintain the fuselage line down the rudder. I was planning on wrapping the left side fabric all the way around and gluing it to the top of the bottom rib, and then bringing the right side fabric up and putting the seam along the left edge of the rib. My concern is that there isn't a lot of internal structure under the overlapping seam, but I'm not sure how else to do it.

Hey Brian. Gary (Colorspace) has given us both the solution to the removable plug/plate. Thanks Gary. As far as wrapping the fabric at the base of the Rudder, I’ve done exactly as you described it. It worked out great. As you know by now with the covering you’ve done, this fabric is extremely resilient. If you are configuring as a taildragger, this area will get hammered with grass, dust, stones and other crap. So I’m adding another 2 or 3 layers of fabric as reinforcement, in addition to the tapes. Then melt couple of drain holes and we’re done. Also, there’s enough structure around there for this arrangement to work. Just overlap the seam 1” to 2”.

David47
04-24-2018, 04:39 PM
................
....Tundra tyres on an RV8 and playing around with the East Coast Kitfox posse could be fun :eek:

An East Coast Kitfox posse for an RV8 ..... picture ... trying .... to ... visualise ;)

Did my initial tailwheel training in a Eurofox. Fantastic fun aeroplane to fly ..... and had to learn tap dancing on Rudder pedals very quickly !

David47
10-01-2018, 02:44 AM
So I haven't posted for about 5 months or so, mainly because I've been out of the country for about 3 months during that time. My 7SS project has therefore sat all on its lonesome wondering where I am.

So, to make it up, I've finished off the fuselage fabric covering after laying in the wire harness and given it all the coats of poly brush per the manual and two coats of poly spray so far. Like many other builders, the biggest challenge for me in fabric covering was the razorback area. So I cheated and split it down the middle and bonded a saddle piece over the centre. With tapes added, it's come up looking not too bad. The fuselage lower surface took a heap of tape, with so many tubes close to the skin. It's a patchwork of endless tapes and provisioning for 5 access cutouts. There's a lot of hours in that fuselage; it took me about 3 full on days to do it, which also included laying in the electrical harness, so it's close to the time it takes to do a wing, including rib stitching.

I've also set the turtledeck in place and installed all the camlocs. At this stage, it's not final trimmed because I'm waiting to set up the flaperon torque tubes and make all cuts at the same time. I'm also planning on putting a hinging arrangement like others to swing the turtledeck back section up for better baggage area access.

I haven't included photos at the moment because I'm having trouble compressing photo files to pixel counts that the site will accept. I'll keep working it and will post them when I've sorted it.

rosslr
10-01-2018, 02:57 AM
Hi Dave,

Great to see you are back into it! Must have been a great trip and I bet you gained a lot from the Kitfox factory visit, Stick and Rudder and also Oskosh. The Holy trifecta for us Oz Kitfox builders!

I'm looking forward to seeing more posts soon. Hope to get out there soon to visit!

cheers

ross

David47
10-01-2018, 03:12 AM
Hey Ross, yep, the USA trip was awesome, especially the flying with Paul at S&R. That's a must for anyone building a KF, no doubt. He's a great instructor. And it was really good to meet John, Debra and Brandon at KF. Really nice people with a genuine affection for their product. And of course Oshkosh ... no words necessary.

It's been very frustrating not working the project for around 3 months, but now I'm back into it, I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. To see the fuselage and empennage surfaces sprayed silver at last finally brings it home that I'm making real progress, and it feels great !.

There'll be no interruptions of this order from now on ...:D

rosslr
10-01-2018, 03:19 AM
Excellent! We'll have to stir up Ben too!

We are planning an OZ circumnavigation next winter - you might want to do a few legs? Or we are always up for another desert trip too...

Head down bum up, get it done!

cheers

r

tjentzsch
10-01-2018, 08:57 AM
Cool build, thanks for the sharing.

These build threads have been a great source of knowledge bout these planes.

David47
10-02-2018, 02:01 AM
Finally worked out how to add a link to the photos for my previous post. Here they are. The good, the bad and the ugly of it all when fabric covering and then spraying with the finishing coatings for the Stitts Poly Fibre system. You need a very good filtering system to keep from drowning in solvent fumes.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QUMdcCQhDHmBRbJz9

tjentzsch
10-02-2018, 06:57 AM
Looking good!

Mcgaero
10-02-2018, 02:09 PM
Great work Dave!
I like your method of using google photos, I might have to give that a go.
I'm glad you've had 3 months off... gives me a chance to catch up ;) unfortunately I'm away with work for a month now so you will probably get yours flying in that time the way you make progress!
Keep up the good work!

jrevens
10-02-2018, 10:56 PM
The pictures should be a good help to other builders. It's good to see your progress, David. Nice work!

David47
10-03-2018, 06:38 AM
Thanks John, and yep, these photos should help other builders. I hope you've sorted any issues with your airplane and are now flying again. You've created a work of art so I hope you're enjoying it.

Ben, yes I got the idea from for using Google photos from Brian and it works great .... should have looked at doing this a long time ago because you can keep the original photo file size .

So I'm looking at early next year for first flight. I've written up my flight manual and have almost finished my annual inspection schedule so most of the paperwork is now done. At the moment I'm waiting for a colour chart for the poly fibre colours to arrive from WA so I can order and get the paint scheme done.

David47
10-07-2018, 05:23 PM
I'm about to start painting my fuselage and tail feathers and wresting with a final paint scheme. One of the colours I'm thinking of using is Polytone Dakota Black. Somewhere in the back of my brain I thought I read somewhere that using a black or very dark colour is not a good idea due to colour fading. Does anyone have any direct or indirect knowledge, or was I dreaming ?

aviator79
10-07-2018, 05:39 PM
The Poly Fiber manual cautions that black can hot enough to shrink your tapes in direct sun. There was some advice about how to mitigate the issue, but I don't recall what it was now.

jrevens
10-07-2018, 05:42 PM
I'm about to start painting my fuselage and tail feathers and wresting with a final paint scheme. One of the colours I'm thinking of using is Polytone Dakota Black. Somewhere in the back of my brain I thought I read somewhere that using a black or very dark colour is not a good idea due to colour fading. Does anyone have any direct or indirect knowledge, or was I dreaming ?


You could do black with white trim, but you might be mistaken for a police car. ;)


Seriously, Josh's airplane looks very attractive in black. Black does get very hot in the sun though. I don't know if that can adversely affect the fabric system or not. I think any effect on paint would depend greatly on the type of paint used.


Edit: Just saw Brian's post ... shrinkage of tapes is a definite potential problem.

Esser
10-07-2018, 06:51 PM
Thanks John! I’m oretty happy with how it looks! Black is pretty much the best colour to avoid fading. Flouresent is the worst. Every product can vary so best t call the manufacturer

Esser
10-07-2018, 07:24 PM
Thanks John! I’m oretty happy with how it looks! Black is pretty much the best colour to avoid fading. Flouresent is the worst. Every product can vary so best t call the manufacturer

jiott
10-07-2018, 09:11 PM
That tape shrinkage problem is a very real one with Polyfiber. I heard of a guy with a real dark color (not black) that had most of his finish tapes on the top side shrink about 1/64" on each side in the hot sun, leaving a very narrow white stripe along both sides of the tape as it pulled away and exposed the undercoat.

David47
10-08-2018, 04:58 AM
Wow, yes, hadn't thought of tape shrinkage. As we get very hot in many parts of Australia I intend to fly in (50C+), that could be a real issue. Thanks all for very helpful input.

......and John, Australian police cars are blue and white .... but they still send a cold shiver when you see them in the rear vision mirror ... :eek:

David47
01-08-2019, 05:09 PM
Been doing a lot on my build since my last post several months ago. Having been away from it for 3 months, the dust has settled on everything so it needs a good vacuuming, but I've got a bit done. the paint scheme is decided which will be a combination of yellow/orange and grey with some black striping. So the wings are painted except for some grey highlighting and the fuselage has just the grey at this stage. Temperatures are relatively high here in Aus at the moment so not good weather for painting, even in the early morning or late evening. I did what the polyfiber manual suggested and undercoated the wings with white first before final paint colour. It seems to kick the yellow/orange up nicely.

The doors are built up and hinged to the fuselage with no issues, but I'm looking at making up a better latching system like some of the other builders have done. I particularly like Bruce's hardware store parts style so I'll do something along those lines. I've also fitted up an Alaskan T3 tail spring and AB3200 tailwheel and fork.

Recently I temporarily installed the fin to the vertical fin. Man, what a performance !. The cutouts I made around each hinge had to be enlarged a bit and I spent almost an entire morning trying to get those hinge bolts in. I'm glad I incorporated a removable plug at the base of the rudder because I needed it to shake out all the bolts I dropped !. Needless to say, I'm now very practiced at getting that rudder on without using my entire swear vocabulary - which is very extensive.

Also, when setting up and swaging the rudder cables, I started by following the manual instructions, but found that the rudder pulleys were the main problem. I have dual adjustable rudder pedals and even though I set the left rudder adjustment in the full forward position, and then set the foot brake at maximum travel, the interference came from the rudder torque tube mounted pulleys contacting the firewall. This may be only an issue with the Lyc O-233 installation, but that was the defining problem. And after swaging the cables at the rudder end, I have the same alignment problem as others have noticed; i.e. the rudder control horn is angled slightly up wrt the alignment of the cable swage and cable. This will introduce some out of plane loads at that swage joint but I don't expect them to be overly large. But I'll be keeping an eye on it, so to speak .... and finally, the turtledeck has been fitted up and I'm about to start building up each flaperon. All good so far and progress is going well (Fingers crossed).

The link to my photos is at: (hope this link works)


https://photos.app.goo.gl/bAChA2qGE3rtp9DB9

Edited: Forgot to mention, I ended up putting an adjustable rudder stop on because I made a stuffup when cutting the stop horns ... and then spent an hour crying tears of frustration into my single malt. The old adage, measure twice, cut once was lit bright and flashing in my brain after this ...

aviator79
01-08-2019, 06:00 PM
Looks great David. I think more of is than not have ended up with adjustable rudder stops. It may not be your fault. The manual directs you to cut the stops earlier than you should.

I can't wait to see your paint scheme. I'm kind of fond of orange and grey!

rosslr
01-08-2019, 06:09 PM
That's looking good Dave! Yes, I too have adjustable rudder stops!

Looking forward to rest of it coming together now!

cheers

r

HighWing
01-08-2019, 07:41 PM
Another "back in the day post". Tape shrinking. A guy from Newport News who was an engineer working at the Submarine manufacturing facility there flew a Model IV. His specific responsibility on the submarines was testing structures with crew safety in mind. On one annual, he had his airplane in a darkened hangar and placing a bright light in his wings, he found that he could see the light alongside the pinked edge of most of the finish tapes. Having access to some testing equipment, he put remote reading temperature sensing devices in the wings and put his airplane in the sun. He found that internal temps approached the low range of Polyfiber shrinking temperatures. And the surprise - for me at least - his paint color was not particularly dark. Dont recall, but definitely not black.

papabear
01-08-2019, 09:50 PM
Looking good dle, the big 40hr is getting nearer, excitement begins:)

dcsfoto
01-09-2019, 06:29 PM
use preshrunk tapes for dark colors


David Kelm
912iS Big Bore Garmin G3X

David47
01-09-2019, 09:23 PM
use preshrunk tapes for dark colors


David Kelm
912iS Big Bore Garmin G3X

Wish I'd known they existed before I covered !!. Too late now ..... and my grey is a darker grey (Polyfiber Federal Grey). :eek:

aviator79
01-10-2019, 07:35 AM
I have Federal Grey on my airplane, and it doesn't strike me as particularly dark. My blue stripes are dark, and they cross all of my rib tapes. I brought the shrinkage concern up in some thread here or on facebook before I painted, and several people reported no trouble with tape shrinkage on darker trim colors. Time will tell. I'll probably park it outside in the Phoenix, AZ area a couple times a year, so maybe some wing covers would be a good investment.

David47
01-10-2019, 01:24 PM
Brian, I’m not sure wing covers will solve any possible problem. From Lowell’s post, and it makes sense, it’s the buildup in temperature within the wing that could cause tape shrinking. These tapes shrink heaps when you apply the iron at 225F ... I know this because I had some wrinkles I needed to get rid of and couldn’t believe how much they shrunk. Like you say, I guess time will tell, so fingers crossed ....

aviator79
01-10-2019, 01:36 PM
That heat has to come from radiant energy absorbed through the wing surface. So I am thinking a lighter-colored cover should reflect more heat and prevent the buildup.

jiott
01-10-2019, 10:21 PM
I suppose this is one advantage of Oratex; if the finish tape shrinks it does not expose any non-uv protected fabric and no fine lines of a different color.

Esser
01-11-2019, 11:44 AM
Personally, I think this is overblown. I haven't seen any tape shrinkage (doesn't mean it hasn't happened) 225deg is HOT like boil water hot. I have a completely black plane and I have never had my wing so hot in direct sun that if I dripped water on it, it would boil.

In fact having a black wing I was interested in seeing how hot my wing could get. On a hot July day in direct sunlight I put my wingtip down so no air could get out. The hottest it got was 53.8C or 128F. Even in Arizona etc I'd be surprised if you you could add a full 100deg to that

David47
01-12-2019, 05:56 AM
Well, I’m not about to change my grey so I live with what happens, if indeed anything does happen. Heat reflecting covers would work and prevent buildup but I’m wondering if this is some kind of aging process on the tapes. They are, after all, applied with no shrink, and they are really just light weight fabric. Maybe over time with temperature variations/cycling they just naturally shrink when painted with heat retaining darker colours. I suspect though that if tape shrink was a serious problem with dark paint colours, poly fibre would have addressed this long ago. But then, maybe not ...

aviator79
01-12-2019, 06:06 AM
It could be aging or that they shrink a small amount at temperatures below 225 deg F. In a little bit of poking around, I now find it very unlikely that fabric surface temperatures get that hot, even in Phoenix. Nonetheless, the phenomenon has been observed enough that the Poly Fiber manual contains a warning about it. I'm not going to worry any more about it until I have a reason to.

Bud Davidson
01-14-2019, 09:47 AM
Fabric shrinkage affecting the paint surface I have experienced here in mid-florida summer sun. But, it occurred only where tape overlapped the fiberglass tip. On the wing I am now finishing I plan to heat such locations to the point where the pinked edge just recedes slightly.
I also wonder about the observation that light showed through at the pinked edges of a finally painted wing. Could this be a result of ironing the pinked edges down after the poly spray silver application? I iron the pinked edges before poly spray. After that I only lightly sand pinked edges if they feel slightly rough, avoiding anything more than just smoothing. No sanding after the final poly spray silver coats. The final color coat should after this fill enough to leave a visible but smooth pinked edge. Ironing pinked edges of every tape applied, even those covered by later taping I have found to be the key to a smooth finish. Butyrate on my ceconite used in my last project seemed easier as I suspect it is thicker than poly spray. And, since weight was not a consideration, I was able to lay on many coats of the silver allowing frequent sanding of rough spots. Not an option with the kitfox.

jiott
01-14-2019, 11:00 AM
I would caution you about heating the edge of an applied tape to cause it to shrink slightly. It will not shrink consistently and you will end up with tape edges that look like snakes. Applying the iron to the very edges to smooth the pinked edges before Poly Spray is recommended, but be careful about getting too far back from the edge.

I preshrank some large pieces of fabric BEFORE I cut out reinforcing gussets, doillies, etc. That works good. I tried to preshrink some 1" and 2" tapes and that was a disaster because they ended up with snakey edges. What would work is to take some wide (4" or so) tape and preshrink it, then use pinking shears to cut 1 or 2" tapes out of it; kind of laborious. I believe you can buy preshrunk tapes from PolyFiber, which seems like the way to go if you are really worried about this possible problem. I just went with mostly white wings and upper fuse and quit worrying about it.

I agree with others that this is a mostly overblown issue, especially for those who hangar their airplanes and don't spend much time in Death Valley.

David47
01-15-2019, 03:20 AM
I would caution you about heating the edge of an applied tape to cause it to shrink slightly. It will not shrink consistently and you will end up with tape edges that look like snakes. Applying the iron to the very edges to smooth the pinked edges before Poly Spray is recommended, but be careful about getting too far back from the edge. .........

Yep, been there done that. One small tape area on my fuselage looks like a coke bottle. Learned the hard way. Also did the same with the doilies - pre-shrunk them before cutting them.

aviator79
01-15-2019, 08:14 AM
We're veering off the topic of David's build a bit, but I'll add a couple notes for those learning from this thread.
-When you're heat smoothing your tapes, you must not let the iron get too hot. I "coke-bottled" a leading edge tape with a too-hot iron, despite it being calibrated. The good news about Poly Fiber is that it's pretty easy to start over.
-I tried three household irons at various price points, and none of them hold temperature within 20 degrees no matter how much time you spend calibrating. They actually hold temperature better while you're ironing. I assume this is because you're putting heat into the fabric, so the iron heats much slower and does not overshoot the setpoint as badly. You can buy expensive ski waxing irons that hold temp better, but the seasoned covering pros use cheap household irons. The trick I learned at Gary Hillman's covering class it to always have an IR thermometer with you. Check the iron temp frequently, preferably immediately before the iron touches the fabric every time. I also checked it as I removed the iron to make sure I was shrinking the fabric to full temp. If it's a little too hot, you can run the iron over your sweatshirt to dissipate some heat. It will cool some as you move it over the fabric.

David47
01-17-2019, 02:17 PM
Agree with Brian. I used an IR to ensure correct temperature with our household iron. Where I came unstuck was in using the small hobby iron I used for some tight places, and didn’t calibrate it. The temperature was obviously higher than 225F, the maximum for tapes. Just proved to me the importance of temperature control.

David47
01-23-2019, 05:42 AM
Now that we have the posting of pictures up and running again, it;s good to get back to adding some more to my build thread, so here we go ....

The weather has been real hot here in the southern parts of Aus. this summer. Temperature records are tumbling and work progresses slowly as a result. But I have got in some good days by working in the early mornings and evenings. Most work has concentrated on getting the flaperons built up and attached to the wing hanger fittings. I was worried about how all that would clock up with hanger rib locations, given that the manual allows for up to 1/8" out of position when laying them in (I built my own wings). Fortunately, I took the time and aligned the ribs and therefore the reinforcing plates at ribs #3 through #9 really well so all good. Also, because the summer is a hot one this year (many consecutive days over 100F+), I've had to forget any painting and concentrate on other work. So I'm about to start making highways for all those electrons to travel along and have installed single point ground and power busses onto an avionics shelf ahead of the I/P. The battery will be well down the back because of the heavier engine and because I'm also installing an Airmaster CSP, which is also a heavy unit (23 lb). From previous posts, I need to get the t/w load (weight) up to around 60 lb in order to have a reasonable CG range without ballasting.

So far I'm up to 880 hours hands on build time, which excludes research and production of the necessary technical data required for the Experimental certificate. I reckon I'll come in around 1100 hours and just on two years build time, which is fairly average from what I gather.

Finally, something I meant to mention in my last post was spraying with polytone paints. The first coat I put on the fuselage couple of months back was done with the ambient temperature around 28-30C (86F) without adding any blush retarder. Couldn't believe how quickly that spray turned to dust before it hit the surface. So, went back and read the instructions (duh) and did what the instructions said I should have done; i.e. put the paint in the refrigerator over night and don't skimp on the blush retarder. The results were a dramatic change. I now have a sheen to the finished coat - it's best seen on the wings I think because of the lighter colour, but the difference was amazing. It'll never be high gloss like Aerothane, but Im ok with that.

bbs428
01-23-2019, 09:16 AM
Great you got the paint sorted.
Never heard about cooling paint in the refer before ! lol :D
I'll tuck that away for future reference.

I can empathize with your working in the hot temps.

rosslr
01-23-2019, 12:19 PM
Great progress Dave and its looking good! Good for you for persevering in this weather! (Tomorrow is looking like another shocker!)

Those are some big holes in the panel Dave! What is going in them??

cheers

r

Mcgaero
01-23-2019, 01:40 PM
Looking great David!
I can sympathize with you about the heat and it’s probably hotter where you are too. I have a bunch of parts to paint but the heat is just not letting up...

David47
01-24-2019, 05:52 AM
Those are some big holes in the panel Dave! What is going in them??

cheers

r

I have an MGL 8.5” Explorer Lite. Big cutout in the middle is for a Garmin Aera 795 GPS and the cutout in the pax side is for a glovebox. Switches and cbs are on a separate switch panel below the I/P. I’ve got the switch panel on the kitchen table directly under an air conditioning vent while I wire it up .... pure heaven !! 45C up here tomorrow ... (groan).

PaulSS
01-24-2019, 07:45 AM
I'll be very interested to hear of your experiences with the Explorer Lite, David. Are you fitting autopilot servos? Do you have the magnetometer, new SP12 GPS, or Extender?

I got pretty handy at designing the screens for my (eventual) machine but haven't looked at them for a while as I think I've pretty much got them how I want them. This will last until 2 seconds after I turn it on for the first time an realise I want something different.....but that's the nice thing about MGL, you can make your own :D

rosslr
01-24-2019, 12:30 PM
No IPad Dave? Oz Runnways or AvPlan? The amount of nav/weather/traffic/ stuff these have now makes the almost my main screen! Could easily mount one on the front of the glovebox!?

r

David47
01-25-2019, 03:53 AM
I'll be very interested to hear of your experiences with the Explorer Lite, David. Are you fitting autopilot servos? Do you have the magnetometer, new SP12 GPS, or Extender?

I got pretty handy at designing the screens for my (eventual) machine but haven't looked at them for a while as I think I've pretty much got them how I want them. This will last until 2 seconds after I turn it on for the first time an realise I want something different.....but that's the nice thing about MGL, you can make your own :D

Hey Paul,

No autopilot - at this stage - but yes, I have a Magnetometer mounted in the LH wing. I may fit an extender, depending on whether I connect the AoA plumbing from my pitot post, which is a Garmin (I think). Don't know anything about the SP12 GPS. Will look it up.

I've designed a startup screen which has the usual suspects - Oil Press., Tacho, fuel press. etc, and am currently working on couple of others, including the flight instruments and engine module. I haven't loaded anything to the unit yet, but I had quite a time understanding how the file architecture hangs together. I'm gradually getting there. Fingers crossed it all works and transfers to the unit seamlessly.

David47
01-25-2019, 04:03 AM
No IPad Dave? Oz Runnways or AvPlan? The amount of nav/weather/traffic/ stuff these have now makes the almost my main screen! Could easily mount one on the front of the glovebox!?

r

Hi Ross. You've nailed the initial plan, which was to attach an iPad to the glovebox door. I'm making the attachment to do that but I've started rethinking use of the Garmin. A standard iPad seems to fit neatly in the Garmin cutout, so throwing both ideas up in the air right now, although it would be a pity not to use the Garmin as it's a useful device. And I plan on using AvPlan mainly because my aerobatics instructor friend swears by it - and he happens to know the owner of Avplan very well ! But Paul has mentioned the MGL GPS module Sp12 .... may look at that as yet another possibility. The choice these days is amazing ....

PaulSS
01-25-2019, 09:44 AM
The SP12 basically gives you certified GPS (SIL = 3). That really wouldn't have an effect on an iPad but it's useful if you want to provide certified GPS to an extended squitter to enable ADSB Out from an appropriate transponder. This is what they're doing in the UK and it's what CASA is considering as well. It's a cheap way of getting ADSB Out :D

In my Eurofox I'll be fitting a Guardian Avionics iPad Mini mount, so the iPad is flush mounted and not hanging off the end of some RAM mount. It will be getting its GPS signal from a traffic awareness device in the UK, known as Pilot Aware and will then have Sky Demon as its nav software. The RV8 I've been playing with has got Oz Runways on the Skyview. Either one works but I've had a play with AvPlan and Oz Runways and prefer the latter.

I assume you've seen the posts on the MGL Forum regarding screen designing etc, particularly those by Dutchroll? Also, the Openmaps thingy for free raster maps works very well.

David47
01-29-2019, 01:40 AM
The SP12 basically gives you certified GPS (SIL = 3). That really wouldn't have an effect on an iPad but it's useful if you want to provide certified GPS to an extended squitter to enable ADSB Out from an appropriate transponder. This is what they're doing in the UK and it's what CASA is considering as well. It's a cheap way of getting ADSB Out :D ...............

I assume you've seen the posts on the MGL Forum regarding screen designing etc, particularly those by Dutchroll? Also, the Openmaps thingy for free raster maps works very well.

Hi Paul, thanks, I didn't know that SP12 existed until you mentioned it so I looked at it on the MGL SA site. Looks to be the goods. I have a Trig Xpdr which is S mode and extended squitter enabled I believe and I do have ADS-B Out in mind at a later time. At the moment I just want to get my build to Phase 1 readiness before I start adding any bells or whistles, but this looks to be a good way forward.

I have joined the MGL forum and have seen Dutchroll's posts. Those posts have helped somewhat.

David47
01-29-2019, 04:41 AM
And so it begins..... This is the part of the build I have no experience in at all and it's one I've been looking forward to, although with some apprehension. I wasn't a star student in my Elec. Eng classes. All the how-to-do-it reading's been done (Bob Knucolls, foremost among them), the schematics produced - for most circuits - and even though I think I've got it all in my head, there's still that doubt. It feels like the first exam I sat for my degree many years ago, but this time I've got to actually do stuff, and not just regurgitate facts and figures. So the main objective, as others have said, is to contain the smoke and make sure that when I press button "A" I don't bring on max nose up at Vne or blow up the avionics. The photos make it look shambolic - which it is to begin with - but thankfully those schematics show me what goes where. More than happy to share doubts, mistakes, successes and raw/unvarnished photos if someone else can benefit from it....

So diving in at the deep end (for me at least), here we go ! ........:cool:

rosslr
01-29-2019, 12:15 PM
Felt the same Dave! But drawing the wiring diagram and having someone who knows better check it with me helped get the logic clear -after a while it became pretty easy actually. Only tip is get good crimpers, wire strippers and side cutters .... and to label every wire! I just used us a label printer and heat shrink.

go well!

cheers

ross

David47
01-31-2019, 05:34 AM
G’day Ross. Yes, I bought a good labeling machine and am using it extensively. The other tools I already have. My wiring will be “rough but honest” .... probably the best way to describe it !!. With my removable boot cowl I can access all of it quite easily.

PaulSS
01-31-2019, 07:33 AM
One fairly obvious tip (to everyone else but me) is not to label the wires all at the same place (usually at the end of the wire). Doing this can often result in a big bulge of wires + their labels when they go into something like a D-Sub connector. Guess how I know this :(

(Labels snipped off and then staggered along the wires)

David47
02-01-2019, 02:23 PM
One fairly obvious tip (to everyone else but me) is not to label the wires all at the same place (usually at the end of the wire). Doing this can often result in a big bulge of wires + their labels when they go into something like a D-Sub connector. Guess how I know this :(

(Labels snipped off and then staggered along the wires)

Yep, agree. Staggered mine for that reason. At the moment I’m just struggling with how best to route wires so it doesn’t look like a bowl of spaghetti ...

mr bill
02-01-2019, 03:09 PM
I love spaghetti, except in wire bundles.

David47
07-15-2019, 05:33 PM
Been a long time since I posted so I thought a bit of an update needed. I'm now down to finish painting the fuselage and have, after a lot of anguish, decided on a paint scheme. It's basically a two tone Federal Grey and Federal Yellow, with black and yellow striping. The line between the two colours was my main concern because I was worrying about paint leaching under the masking tape. However, others on the site provide, as usual, really valuable advice, which I followed to the letter. And it's worked, except in couple of places where the tape lifted a bit. With help from a friend, I temporarily assembled the wings to the fuselage to finally set the closing ribs and line up the flaperon spar cutout with the turtle deck - used the inboard hangers from each flaperon and a broom handle to line it up. While at it, I decided to spray the cockpit tubes grey because I think the white didn't really fit with the paint scheme. Happy with the final result. I'm now down to an ever shortening list of stuff to finish and the focus now is the cockpit and baggage area. I'm installing a Lycoming YO-233 engine which is heavier than the Rotax so I'm waiting to do a preliminary weight and balance before deciding on how far aft the battery needs to be positioned.

Mcgaero
07-15-2019, 05:51 PM
Love the paint scheme David!
Always liked the grey and yellow Carbon Cubs, the Kitfox will look fantastic in these colors!
Its a good feeling to get the painting finished.

DesertFox4
07-15-2019, 06:59 PM
Very nice paint scheme David.

airlina
07-16-2019, 02:58 AM
Looking nice David, sounds like you are at the punch list stage and getting close. Bruce N199CL

aviator79
07-16-2019, 05:59 AM
Looks great David! Can't wait to see you flying.

jrevens
07-16-2019, 09:37 AM
I think it looks great too, David! You’re getting there! The YO-233 should be a good, reliable engine, and about as light as you can get with a Lycoming.

DesertFox4
07-16-2019, 10:41 AM
I flew the factory’s 233 Lycoming equipped Kitfox with John McB. after the radial was removed from that aircraft. It performed pretty well. It was the carbureted version.

David47
07-16-2019, 05:33 PM
Thanks guys, comments appreciated. You do all this work to get to the stage of painting and then, at least in my case, you agonise over colours because that's what people see, and don't see all the real work underlying that. But similar to Brian's paint scheme, the grey and yellow, or orange, go well together. That striping took, literally hours to mask off for a matter of minutes spray painting. I can now understand why it costs heaps for stripes or other similar markings ... and the Lycoming O-233 (mine is carburettor too Steve) should give enough grunt. Ben has the injected version so will be interesting to see how fuel consumptions compare. But yep, the list gets shorter each day ...