Short Field- FARM

[Lthrnek89]

I'm looking for some information regarding short field performance. I live in western Washington on a 40 ac farm and my wife has FINALLY given the OK to get my license. I have always loved the KF and I believe that it would work well here on the farm. My intent in to purchase a 5 or better, but what size engine should I need for it to perform well?

I have trees at both ends that are roughly 50 feet. and a gradual slope the long way across the field with 1200 feet between the treeline.

I'm 6'3" 225# and my wife is 5'2" and maybe 125#

We live near an airfield and could top-off there- so I could fly lighter in and out. I would work out of the local airfield and some off-airport site to earn my experience before coming to the farm.

Do-able? I think so- but I don't have any meaningful idea. SO I come to y'all- Thanks for sharing :o

[jiott]

My opinion on a 1200' runway with 50' trees at both ends is a no go. Doable, but no room for any error not even once.

[Wheels]

Im with him.
I fly out of a 1600 foot strip daily in a model IV with an 80 horse. I weigh 165 and the wife is 102 (sshhhh) and on a hot day with full tanks I would not get in or out with anything like safety margin. Throw in some turbulence, float a little and need a go around, ... not worth the hospital stay or worse.
A big motor in a SS7, might be a different deal, but I don't have any experience there. I'm just a hobbit with a little ole model IV and 80 ponies.

[Dave S]

That's an easy answer..........no (IMHO)


(S7 W/100HP)


I've flown comfortably in and out of a 900 foot strip with open space on both ends and that was with me alone (160#) and half fuel, light winds no turbs.

[Lthrnek89]

I can see where this is going. Thanks for the advice.

This is on the family farm and my father-in-law used to fly his KF3 out of it... many years ago. Trees were shorter then, but he has had a history of judgment errors.. he called them landing spots of opportunity.

[avidflyer]

If you could angle your strip a bit, you would get more length. I had 1500' strip on a fourty. Eventually bought 3 more acres from the neighbor in the back, and now have 2000" JImChuk

[Esser]

I wouldn't say it's not doable. My friend has 1200' with 80' trees on the end. The other end is open. Even though it's super comfortable getting in and out, you only really take off towards the no tree area. 1200' is a lot of runway for a plane that needs 300' to take off and land(in perfect conditions). But 50' trees really make the runway more like 500' or less.

I would say get REALLY used to your plane, practice at the close airport. Put out cones. Find out how short you can actually take off and land. But like the others said, it would be nice if one end was tree less. Your density altitude can make a big difference. The 5's and up need 100HP you see a few 80's around but I think if you talk to them, they all want 100+

[Av8r3400]

My strip is at 1400' AGL. The strip itself is 900' long. 30' trees on one end and 60' trees 500' off the other end. It's a challenge. Definitely not safe for a novice.

Link (https://youtu.be/xoLbVFPlwFQ)

[n85ae]

Your opening statement "OK to get my license" says enough. Short field, short
time pilot is an invitation for disaster. Takes a lot of hours to where you know
instinctively what the airplane is going to do, and even then you make mistakes.

Experience usually helps a lot to minimize how bad the mistakes are, so that's
why after you get past 500 or so hours you become a mostly safe pilot ... You
can never be completely safe though.

Don't get your ticket, with a plan to fly in and out of that field, unless you get
a chainsaw out first and remove the trees.

Jeff

[Moparrob]

I'm glad you posted this. I have about 600 feet of runway, but no trees. The worst thing I could hit is a rickety fence, about 4' high. Prevailing wind is out of the North, so If I were to take off to the North, I have mountains gradually sloping up to about 300' AGL, peaking about 1000' from the end of my "runway". I hope to get a BFR and tailwheel endorsement in the Kitfox from Stick and Rudder, which is about 50 minutes away by car. I'll see what my instructor has to say, but before I clear away the sage, what does the Kitfox hive-mind think?

[Slyfox]

this is my thoughts. I would go to thun field and take a demo flight. If you are still interested in flying, get your license. After getting your license and only then, decide what airplane you want and if you still think you want to fly out of this field of yours. Another thought, have someone come out and log all those trees. they have to be able to do it on the weekend. ha! I'm sure there will be an environmentalist close by to stop it, so get them down quick. doing this just might help you with the cost to learn how to fly. of course you could just learn to fly a helicopter and buy that instead. much easier to get into a place like that.

[HighWing]

All good thoughts in my opinion. I find that for me, the more conservative thinking is more like mine, but I do have some other thoughts as well. A couple of examples have tempered my thinking somewhat. A good friend, Mark, Flew out of his 1000 ft. strip for years until he accurately measured it. From then on he flew out of his 700 ft. Strip. I flew over it many times, but never landed there. Then Hal's strip or rather the dirt road behind his house. Cut out of a fairly steep slope, dragging a wing tip was my first thought when I walked it, then the hump that defined the exact touch down spot. Land short and a hard bounce to go-around. Land precisely and presto - perfect. Land a bit long and maybe a go-around is possible. I know that when Hal had guests who wanted a ride in his early S-7 it was a short flight for him solo to a pick up spot to board his passenger then after the flight and deplaning the passenger it was Hal solo back home and his guest riding back in the car. I don't believe anyone other than Hal ever landed behind his house.

The point: As every airplane is different, the guy with his hands on the throttle and stick is the biggest factor. Time,determination and ultimately skill will determine if it will work.

[Slyfox]

I was a little tough on post 11, but in the original post it talked of being a new pilot. Anyway, I know I could land in there no problem. main thing is to always do a 3 point landing, that will give you the slowest possible approach. be 50mph or less coming over the approach end, have your throttle to where it will be sloooow. like take your normal setting and back the throttle stops off another 1/2 on each carb slow. too much rpm and you will float forever, you don't want that for a short landing. when you are over the approach you back off the throttle, if you are good you will know how the feel is with the throttle, pull back on the stick and it will drop on the runway, like a pillow cus more than likely your tail is already draggin. your down, going real slow and you don't even need the brakes. that's my favorite landing type. wheel landings are for show offs and will cause big problems on a short field. not that I haven't done it, I can but if you want short, that's it. oh, love my flight adjustable prop also.

now with talk of the sti wing and such, that would really be the ticket with 25 mph stall. that would be cool

[JAMES20011]

Hello flying series 7 with 100 hp. Find friends with farm strips to practice on. I live in La Grande ore 2700' elevation and have several farm strips that I practice on. some with trees some with power lines.. Great to have friends. I bought a kf 4-1200 before I had my licence and learned to fly it in Caldwell Id. now have over 500 hrs and love the Snake river strips . We often go there on our way to see grandkids and are fairly heavy on some parts of the landing/takeoffs. The seven works real nice if you are willing to let it fly. The biggest problem I have had is trying to force the plane to perform before its ready.. Good example is a local strip called Minum Lodge ore. tall trees on both ends. I feel a need to get of ground and climb to soon every time and you must allow the aircraft to get ready before you pull up. A good instructor will really help you get over that... I always recommend you get a flight from a local instructor to see If you really like that type of flying. Mabey Paul at stick and rudder on some back woods strips...

[av8rps]

I'm looking for some information regarding short field performance. (Snip)

I have trees at both ends that are roughly 50 feet. and a gradual slope the long way across the field with 1200 feet between the treeline. (Snip, snip...)

We live near an airfield and could top-off there- so I could fly lighter in and out. I would work out of the local airfield and some off-airport site to earn my experience before coming to the farm.

Do-able? I think so- but I don't have any meaningful idea. SO I come to y'all- Thanks for sharing :o

I definitely think your strip is "do-able". But you not only need some good experience before you tackle that demanding kind of flying, but you also need the right plane. The Model 4 through 7 Kitfox uses the cleaner, faster Riblett airfoil and is much harder to slow down than the earlier Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers that utilize the original Dean Wilson high lift, high undercamber, high drag airfoil.

I have a Just Highlander (which has the Dean Wilson undercamber wing) as well as a Model 4 Kitfox, and the Highlander is definitely the one I would prefer to take into your strip. It will slow down better, quicker, and come down steeper than my Kitfox, without gaining too much speed. The Kitfox with the Riblett airfoil is cleaner aerodynamically, and consequently is much harder to slow down, which results in needing more runway length, especially if coming over obstacles like 50 ft trees.

And for the record, I love my Model 4 Kitfox. But if I really have to go in short on a regular basis I would prefer the older undercambered airfoil. The older airfoil makes short runways with trees on both ends feel much longer :)

[beeryboats]

That's some good stuff to know. I was just to the point of breaking in the new engine, 582, and winter set in. All my time is in various Piper tail draggers but I have yet to fly my IV. My strip is 36II here in Indiana, 1800' x 100'. It's now in and out to the south, but should be no issue. I think!

[896tr]

I think that if a B-25 can take off from a 467 foot carrier flight deck with 2,000 pounds in the "cargo sack" the WELL trained Kitfox pilot will be able to take off from his/her short field. However the B-25 pilots were well trained and made many practice flights on a much longer field before attempting the take off from a pitching and rolling runway. Sounds like extensive training with Stick & Rudder would be the place for a newbie or any "long runway Kitfox pilot" to get the short field training to prevent an aircraft accident report from being created. If you are new to flying don't forget to add the training cost to your build budget.

[DesertFox4]

If the original poster could rotate his airstrip into a 30 knot headwind then accelerate his strip to 20 knots then I would agree. He would have his takeoff speed reduced by 50 knots like Gen. Doolittle and his Raiders. Also the Raiders didn’t have 50 foot trees to climb over at the end of the carrier. They could also drop 50 feet and pick badly needed speed before going swimming in the Pacific.
That was one gutsy mission flown by genuine heros.🇺🇸🏅
But I whole heartily agree that training and lots of experience is vital to operating out of high risk fields.👍

[Lthrnek89]

Thanks for all of the great information. Makes sense that my father-in-law flew a KF3 out of the farm years ago... trees were smaller then. I have reached out to Stick and Rudder regarding their training. I have also taken a discovery flight at Thun Field in Pierce County. Great flight in 172/180. I have also passed the GoldSeal online ground school and ready to take my written.

My intent is to fly often- so cost have to be reasonable. We have barn space and can trailer to the nearby airfield. My wife and I have discussed this and if we get to the point where we want/need a larger aircraft (172), then we'll just rent one.

Again-Thanks for all of the great information.

[TY2068]

I have to tell you. AV8RPS's advice is right on point. Best advice you'll get. I have 42ac, 1700' and 40' trees. Without already having my PP and 1,000+ UL hours behind me it would not have been a good thing to try. IV classic 582.

[Lthrnek89]

So... what you are ALL saying is that I should get years of flying experience and then just purchase the 20 acres from my neighbor and cut the tress down. I think we could pull that off. :)

I have been in an aviation family my entire-life... ( father was a Marine Aviator for 26 years and I was a powerline/crew-chief on F/A-18s in the Marines for 10 years)

so I have learned two things regarding aircraft accidents:

1) Sh!t happens clause.. the unforeseeable with aircraft or personnel (health)
2) Mitigating Risk.... manage risk... to reduce the possibility of an accident


I get it... thanks again!

[Rooster]

Hi there from South Africa.

We buried my friend Pierre last week on Thursday!
He was flying out of his 350 meter (1155 feet) farm strip.(One way in and one way out). He had a Kitfox SS7 with a Rotax 914 turbo and an in flight adjustable prop. Empty weight of 845 lbs.

Take-Off downhill. Hot morning. Calm wind? Tail wind? Maybe a wind eddy? Big feet so did he activate brakes while ruddering? Heavy passenger? Did he forget flaps? Did he run it up to full power before he let go the brakes? Did he have the prop set properly?
Was his lap strap tightened properly?
Our CAA accident investigation team is very bad, so we may never know.

The short version is that he rotated, came down again and ran off the end of the runway and through his gate (busting it up) into the alfalfa land, flipped and his neck was broken. (tall and heavy guy).

Experience? definitely! Tail wheel experience? some, but not heaps.
I've flown in and out of his field for a visit at tea time many times and each time was different and required different considerations.

My point is, with such capable aircraft, we must be MORE vigilant before each take off and each landing because we will more than likely expect the aircraft to give everything every time and keep us from dying!

His 2 beautiful daughters and his loving wife miss him terribly!
I do too!

Be careful, please.

[David47]

Oh man, that is so sad. There its nothing anyone can say to assuage the grief in these circumstances but for what its worth, sincere condolences to family and friends, yourself included. And you're right, vigilance is key, but knowing your aircraft is also important, particularly when weather conditions are abnormal. Hopefully your CAA will do a good job of investigating and come to a conclusion as to the cause(s) so that we can all learn.

[Av8r3400]

A very sobering story, Rooster. We all send our best to you and your friend's family on your tragic loss.


This does bring to mind that even though our plane are very capable, is it really necessary for that type of risk every time you want to fly? Since I put up the couple of videos flying into my strip I get asked all the time, "Why not keep your plane there all the time?"


There are a couple of reasons why I don't, but this is the main one. There are very few options at my strip in the event of an emergency. Either on approach or departure. The plane and the pilot must be both on their "A" game to do my strip. If one is off just a little, you are into the trees, with a very poor outlook.


Short, challenging strips can be fun. To need to do this every time you fly is playing at a very dangerous game. Coming home fatigued after a long day of flying and then needing to land at a very challenging strip is not the way to stay healthy.


Our choice of hobby, with all of it's great rewards, also has to include a fair amount of risk abatement.




Be safe out there.

[Slyfox]

very sobering Rooster. Which comes to what I want to say here. Not everybody is created equal. Meaning we all have a skill set and some people just may not have the skills to do some things, not saying that your friend didn't have the skills. I'm saying that flying takes a special skill. building airplanes takes a special skill (although it's made to believe anybody can do it) . running my bass boat at 75 miles an hour takes a special skill. But it's a persons ability to recognize that no matter what your skill level is, it's up to the person doing that skill to determine whether or not it's safe at the time you do it or not. Ya I can run my bass boat at 75 mph but at the moment I want to do it, is it the right thing to do. there are many conditions that make doing something not safe. conditions on the water or in the air tell us, is it safe. if that isn't enough there might be something with the equipment that could have a problem. so our skill may not be enough for a safe outing in something we love to do. then there is the final result of living our life, is it our time. I hope and pray that my life ends up being what I want for myself. I can't be restricting myself because this and that could happen. but rather be diligent and make sure each and every flight or outing in my boat is to the best I can make it be. don't be careless and disrespectful of the equipment and the time doing it. but try to be the best I can be at what I'm doing at the time.

[Lthrnek89]

Rooster,

Very sorry for the loss of your good friend- thank you for sharing your story here.

[bbs428]

Very sad post Rooster.

I'm Sorry for the loss of your friend and a fellow Kitfox driver.
As a participant in risky life pursuits, ie. motorcycles and airplanes,
I'm still breathing because of being lucky at times when I failed at assessing risk.


" ...with such capable aircraft, we must be MORE vigilant before each take off and each landing
because we will more than likely expect the aircraft to give everything every time and keep us from dying!"

Agreed.

[Rooster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWRCQVBzDHc

This is a clip of me in my 5 with a Franklin 4A 235 B31 116HP at Pierre's airfield.
My plane is 960lbs empty.
The difference here is that this was a cool evening with an into wind (gentle, as you can see from the sock) take off. I was one up and 3/4 tanks.
He was operating on a hot morning (07h15) and I think with no significant wind, but those large hills to the north can cause eddys and allow us to think that there is no wind????
The other day, it was hot and I was caught with 2 wind shears on approach to land on the up hill on short finals! I ended up with full power to keep it from landing short and hard in the alfalfa and before the gate, then , quick as a wink, I was too fast and touching down and committed to land! I got it stopped in good time though, but it just goes to show that a couple of variables and we are "in the Dwang!"

You can see the gate he went through and he ended up in the middle of that alfalfa land.

Pierre filmed this on his I-phone.:(:(

So?
It seems do-able, and Pierre and I have been doing it pretty Easily for a long time, but suddenly, on the day, all the holes in the cheese lined up to cause an accident!

What's done is done and the only good that can come of it now, is that we all learn something; If only to be more careful!

Reid

[efwd]

Wow Rooster, sorry to hear this story. Thanks for posting. That strip looks pretty inviting. I would not think that it would be a problematic strip by the looks of it. Goes to show that back country strips are nothing to take lightly. If one wants to do those kind of strips it is absolutely advisable to get the instruction from a skilled back country pilot. I won't be doing it until I fly again with Stick and Rudder.

[Slyfox]

very good eddie. best to replace the bag of luck with experience.

[DesertFox4]

As all who love flight seek to understand when one of us departs our ranks, what can be learned and dispersed amoung us so we don’t have to mourn another pilot and friend. Or they us. Time will tell if something can be learned from this sad loss. What we all know for sure today is, our Kitfox family is diminished greatly.

Sincere condolences Reid to you and to Pierre’s family.

[rosslr]

Hi Reid,

So sorry to hear of this sad accident and condolences to you and Pierre's family.

For you to post in such a factual way that provides timely and focussed reflection on short field flying is a great way of honouring your friend and providing a lasting and useful legacy to our community.

Once again thanks for the post and safe flying.

Ross

[jrevens]

I too am saddened by this, Reid. I know what it's like to lose friends in flying accidents. As Ross said, you honor Pierre by reminding us all that life can be too short, and some things that we love to do can very deeply affect so many people when the unthinkable happens. It's a good reminder to me, to let my family and friends know, often, just how much they mean to me. You just never know. Godspeed to your friend.

[Esser]

Sorry to hear Reid, always hard to lose a friend too early.

Not saying this was part of your friends accident at all but the one thing I don’t like about the 914 is the waste gate failure mode is wide open. Which means if your waste gate cable slips at the wrong time, you’re making around 2/3s the HP you were planning on.

[NinerBikes]

So... what you are ALL saying is that I should get years of flying experience and then just purchase the 20 acres from my neighbor and cut the tress down. I think we could pull that off. :)

I have been in an aviation family my entire-life... ( father was a Marine Aviator for 26 years and I was a powerline/crew-chief on F/A-18s in the Marines for 10 years)

so I have learned two things regarding aircraft accidents:

1) Sh!t happens clause.. the unforeseeable with aircraft or personnel (health)
2) Mitigating Risk.... manage risk... to reduce the possibility of an accident


I get it... thanks again!

I think it's hours of flying time... in various locations. How fast you accrue them in a year or years... well, that's up to you. :p

[PapuaPilot]

So sorry to hear about the accident and the loss of your friend Reid. That's really tough.

Thanks for using this opportunity to challenge us all to be safer. There are so many things that can be done to make us safer. Training, experience, sharing our close calls and stupid moments. A couple things I always preach to other pilots is "margin, margin, margin" and that we need to be "thinking pilots".