4 Seater KITFOX

[1 Task]

Not sure if this is blasphemy but airplanes arent cheap and a 4 seater kitfox would fit the bill better. Wasnt sure if there was anything in the works or its just a “look elsewhere” situation...love the kitfox and as we all know airplanes are nothing but compromises but it would be cool to know if kitfox was thinking about one and if there was any interest in it.

Thoughts?

[Hockeystud87]

I think it moves away from the whole ideology of the KitFox. It would be like having a 4 place Cub. It's just not a Cub anymore it's a completely different plane.

What a 4 place KF is, is a Hi-performance 2000+ gross plane. You're essentially wanting a Maule or 180/5.

I'll agree with the move to the model 5-7 but if they do make a 4 place KF it will just be one in name nothing else.

[aviator79]

Agree with the above. You can't take a Kitfox (or really any other 2-place light airplane) and just add a couple seats. The Glasair Sportsman came the closest, but the additional seats are barely usable for full size people, and that airplane is easily a quarter million.


Also, you give up a lot to go to 4 seats. There are very few experimentals with 4 seats, and they don't come cheap. You can go certified, but anything with 4 seats that is certified and reasonably affordable is yawn-inducing. I have a family of 4, but we seldom all fly together. I'm not giving up much by not having those two extra seats. If I really need them, I'll go rent a 172.

[44Runner]

The Bearhawk 4 Place is a pretty sweet plane if you need a 4 seater. That would probably be the top of my list if I wanted a 4 seater plane.

[Esser]

Ditto the Bearhawk comment. There are lots of people out there who think the Kitfox 5-7 are a departure from Kitfox's roots.

I would rather see Kitfox stay lean and keep coming out with innovative products that are bolt on for existing owners such as the STi and shock gear. Be great at one thing than good at many things.

[avidflyer]

Someone was just saying on one of the other threads how at way higher weights their Kifox turns into a slug or words to that effect. The wing area is not real high on a Kifox. It didn't need to be when the plane was real light. Double the weight, and that same wing will perform way different. Maybe go from very good to very bad. Just my thoughts on it. A completely up sized Kifox would be something else of course. Just my two cents worth. JImChuk

[1 Task]

My thought was 2 small seats for my children. Like a bolt in option instead of using the rear for baggage. Not even sure if theres enough room back there.

[aviator79]

Definitely not enough room for that. There may be room for a rear-facing single child seat, but it would be a trick getting in and out. This really just isn't the plane for that. That's Sportsman territory.

[44Runner]

Not sure if this is blasphemy but airplanes arent cheap and a 4 seater kitfox would fit the bill better. Wasnt sure if there was anything in the works or its just a “look elsewhere” situation...love the kitfox and as we all know airplanes are nothing but compromises but it would be cool to know if kitfox was thinking about one and if there was any interest in it.

Thoughts?


My thought was 2 small seats for my children. Like a bolt in option instead of using the rear for baggage. Not even sure if theres enough room back there.

My thoughts are you don't want a KitFox, you want a Bearhawk 4 place, and that is fine. Bearhawks are awesome planes. I bet if you polled all the people with 1-2 kid families in here, every single one of them has thought about that plane for their family. I know I have. Heck, it isn't even that much more money than a KitFox either.

If you want to bring the kids, get a plane that can do it right. I hope to have both planes parked in my hangar one day.

[Bryan]

The Bearhawk is a nice 4 place airplane. It is large compared to the Kitfox as I am in the painting stages of one right now. One thing for sure is its got a lot of room. I am helping a friend with this as I am very happy with my Kitfox, but then again I do not need 4 seats so not wanting the extra expense of build price, insurance price, and the longer build time. Just my two cents.

[Wheels]

In my experience, 90 percent of all pilots fly alone 90 percent of the time. Even twin engine planes are out there with solo pilots all the time.
The two place Kitfox has a power to weight ratio that beats all. Fuel economy, ease of construction, ease of maintenance, overall performance is not going to be found in a four place anything. Sorry, I would not even look twice. The boys and girls at the factory have a winner in the two place go anyplace, airplane.

[N981MS]

Kitfox is name with an excellent reputation in the experimental world.

If John put together a 4 seater with the same quality and similar flying qualities (not a small or cheap task) it would certainly sell. It would be bigger, need different wing, different engine options, etc, etc. It would be an entirely new airplane but it would sell based on reputation alone. Sell enough???

Van resisted the idea of side by side seating, constant speed props, and 4 seaters. He gave in, came up with quality products and we can see the result. He diverted from his personal beliefs to offer what the market wanted.

Bottom line is; what can Kitfox make money with? Are there enough buyers out there to share the 4 place bush market with Bearhawk? Given the overall history of Kitfox design and its current trajectory as best I can see it, I doubt we will see a 4 place from them. That is better for me at present because building one at this point is not an option but the next cool add ons for my 6 might be. I would like Carbon cowl please. Probably about as likely as a 4 place given that I have 6 with a Continental.

As for the poll I voted no. The majority seems to be going that way as well. Most folks here already have decided that 2 places are enough for them. Otherwise they would have built something else. The votes that matter most, however, are out there, somewhere, dreaming.

[aviator79]

The Vans analogy is pertinent. Their four-place appears to have sold well. However, the market for a four-place go-fast "family sedan" is probably many times larger than the market for a four-place backcountry airplane. The performance tradeoffs are also easier in the RV market. Most people don't care if their RV-10 burns up a few hundred extra feet of runway to accommodate the two empty seats in back. Couple that to the fact that Kitfox can't make planes fast enough to meet the current demand, and that it's a company that is very cautious about growing too large too fast, and I just don't think it's likely for them to spend the R&D money on a completely new airplane unless it's an S8.

If they did, I think they would eat Bearhawk's lunch. They have a much stronger brand, and working from a clean sheet with well-defined competition, they could produce a better airplane and a better kit. In terms of ROI, I think their money would be better spent updating their production facility with improved tooling and automation to allow them to respond to market demand with little impact to their labor pool. It would also allow them to push more SLSAs out the door, and the benefits would also accrue to kit builders in an even easier build and lower build time. Bringing fiberglass/composites in house is a good example of investing in better S7 production. I can say that the difference in quality between my wingtips (before Brandon stood up the fiberglass shop) and my Cowls (after they brought it in house) is night-and-day.

Of course, I have no special knowledge of their day-to-day production so I could be completely off-base.

[jonstark]

Not sure if this is blasphemy but airplanes arent cheap and a 4 seater kitfox would fit the bill better. Wasnt sure if there was anything in the works or its just a “look elsewhere” situation...love the kitfox and as we all know airplanes are nothing but compromises but it would be cool to know if kitfox was thinking about one and if there was any interest in it.

Thoughts?

I say again...
A guy needs a fleet of airplanes and an understanding wife.

[rv9ralph]

So, here's one to consider. Over on Vans Air Force forums, on the front page is a survey on whether Van's should build a back country super cub type version RV.

As stated before, the Return On Investment for Kitfox to design a 4 place, IMHO, would not be there.

The Kitfox does what it does very well, because it is what it is.

To add 2 seats is not just enlarge the cabin, then you have to reinforce the fuselage, then you need more wing to carry the increased weight, then you have to add more HP to carry the increased... it just keeps snowballing without the results you want.

Ralph

[jiott]

Unless things have changed recently, I don't believe Kitfox has any engineers on staff. So a brand new 4 seat design would mean farming out the design work or adding engineers to the staff. Van's has always had engineers on staff to create their many different models. Kitfox is mainly a manufacturing company, and a good one at that, so I don't see drastic new models coming out, just small incremental improvements.

[kitfoxkat]

I love our Kitfox SuperSport7 but REALLY want to fly a 4-seater Kitfox! We need more room for our dogs... among other things! :-))

[BobRS]

Just to remind everyone taking this survey, the McBeans did develop the S7 STi which undoubted took some aeronautical engineering as well as flight testing. John and Debra would need to consider all the elements of a business plan to develop a 4-seater KF, but with the stability and backlog of orders for a superior airplane in the present design....that's the kind of business I would wish for, and something to take to the bank.

BobRS
SS7, N104Y, Rotax 914
Albuquerque, NM

[MikeThePilot]

Well, I completely understand the risk and economics. But, while the Bearhawk is a great aircraft the kit is not nearly the completeness and buildability of a kitfox, and the certified options are costly, or in the case of C180 and 185s aging quickly. Maules are great, but still lack the advantages of EAB. I love the idea of something like a Maule MX7-180 offered as an EAB kit which you could equip with a range of power options from 160-220hp - imagine an MX7 you could build yourself with a 215hp IO390, G3X suite, and 4 seats! I have to believe there would be a market for that...

[Brandon Petersen]

Kitfox is name with an excellent reputation in the experimental world.

If John put together a 4 seater with the same quality and similar flying qualities (not a small or cheap task) it would certainly sell. It would be bigger, need different wing, different engine options, etc, etc. It would be an entirely new airplane but it would sell based on reputation alone. Sell enough???

Van resisted the idea of side by side seating, constant speed props, and 4 seaters. He gave in, came up with quality products and we can see the result. He diverted from his personal beliefs to offer what the market wanted.

Bottom line is; what can Kitfox make money with? Are there enough buyers out there to share the 4 place bush market with Bearhawk? Given the overall history of Kitfox design and its current trajectory as best I can see it, I doubt we will see a 4 place from them. That is better for me at present because building one at this point is not an option but the next cool add ons for my 6 might be. I would like Carbon cowl please. Probably about as likely as a 4 place given that I have 6 with a Continental.

As for the poll I voted no. The majority seems to be going that way as well. Most folks here already have decided that 2 places are enough for them. Otherwise they would have built something else. The votes that matter most, however, are out there, somewhere, dreaming.



We are offering the carbon cowl for the Continental. There a wait for if, but you can get on the list.


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