Viking 130

[SilverShadow]

Hey all, currently going through the planning process, and the Viking 130 seems like a reasonable option, wondering if you all have heard much about it or have experience running one long term. Obviously cost difference between it and the Rotax 912 is a conciderable factor, but worth spending the extra money if the 130 just isn’t up to the reliability.

Thanks,

Jason

[rv9ralph]

A friend put one in his RV-12... not happy. More work, less performance.

Not everything should be considered due to a lower cost.

Ralph

[Av8r3400]

Personally, I would not give Jan Eggenfelter a penny if he was the last engine supplier on the planet.

[SilverShadow]

This is why we ask questions, to get perspective. Any insight into the R2800? Cruise speed? Overhaul costs? (I know it won’t me as good of a cruise as the 912 but radials are pretty awesome!). Like I was saying before I just want to explore all the options and gain as much insight into all available options so I can make an informed decision.

Thanks for all opinions in advance.

[Dorsal]

You might want to watch this if you haven't already seen it

https://youtu.be/ZIjh4o9QjtY

[SilverShadow]

Well guess that makes the decision pretty straight forward then... Thank you every one for your comments and perspective.

[Av8r3400]

If I were starting from scratch on a Kitfox build, today my engine choices would be in this order:


Rotax
Continental/Lycoming
Yamaha


Depending on it's future development, the Yamaha may move up a notch...

[SilverShadow]

Continental has been one of my choices currently as we run their engine with great success in our current fleet of aircraft. What is the yamaha engine that you have listed though, not too familiar with much in the experimental fixed wing side of things.

I do greatly appreciate all of this advice though, been very enlightening.

[colospace]

I always found the UL Power to be interesting, but they were too new to the market when I was choosing/buying. I have not kept up with their progress in the market, but it does appear that Zenith Aircraft is pretty committed to that engine.

[Av8r3400]

... What is the yamaha engine that you have listed though, not too familiar with much in the experimental fixed wing side of things. ...

There are several people on this board and others experimenting with the Yamaha RX1 and Apex snowmobile engines. Steve Henry (of dead stick takeoff fame) has an Apex engine on his current Highlander and the performance is breathtaking. These engines are capable of near 300 hp in a snowmobile and in aircraft tune are making 140+ reliable hp (without a turbo or nitrous) at slightly more weight than a Rotax 912 100 hp.

[Suprdave]

Aero Newbie here, but not a newbie with Honda Engines...by far.

Let's preface this, with I havent met Jan, ever...but I'm planning a Kitfox 7 with 'A' Honda Engine.

Being completely Objective...the only engine I'd ever trust my Life too...would be a stock Naturally-Aspirated Honda Engine. You'd really have a hard-time burning it up, tbh...I have no idea why he runs Catalytic Converters? I'm assuming it's because he doesn't have complete ECU control\knowledge.

In my perfect world, Jan would just sell me his FWF Mounts and PSRU to me.

Then I would develop the engine combo on my own, custom wiring and tune the Motec M170 ona Loading Engine Dyno for MBT...the Honda L15 engines are basically just scaled down version of the Honda K series...which is basically one of the best and highest hp\most efficient 4 Cylinder Engines ever made.

To put things in perspective, an Air-Cooled Airplane Engine's bsfc #s, etc make a Rotary look good. A Water-Cooled, DI Honda is on the completely opposite end of the spectrum on EVERY level. Variable Valve Lift, and you can manipulate cam phasing to bump the midrange torque. Honda's are underrated from the factory, BY FAR.

I did one of the first K20 Type R Swaps into a EK Civic back in the early 2000s.

Running on the Stock ECU was like ~205whp\150 ona DynoJet with a inconsistent torque curve.

Switching to Hondata and a decent 4-1 Header net'd ~215whp\155, picking up everywhere.

While building a 2.5L Race Motor...we put the short stack Jenvey ITBs and Motec M400 on the stock K20...235whp\160tq, stock longblock.

Point Being...without Turbos ever being involved, just a dialed in stock L15 NA, 'could' make more than pretty much anything out there without trying hard.

If you change the oil and don't overheat it, TTBO could be predicted with a compression and leakdown tester. It's literally never gonna catastrophically toss a Rod or something...

I wouldn't even build the bottom end unless I put a Turbo on, which is much easier...obviously. The L Series Engines all share the same Shortblock...so the 'build' is super-cookie cutter.

There's really only a couple ways to kill one of these engines...

1 - Run Engine without Oil
2 - Run Engine without Coolant
3 - Mechanical Over-Rev (Impossible in Airplane)
4 - Horrific EFI Calibration (Really hard to do, NA)

Turbocharged, you could easily melt one on takeoff with a bad Calibration.

But, NA? I literally can't see a scenario that you can possibly burn it up unless #1 or #2...

Heat Management is key in all scenarios involving Honda Engines...

If you can keep Coolant and Oil Temps, under 185F...that engine will run indefinitely...period.

Regardless of his past business practices, Jan is onto a hot-ticket.

Personally, the Engine side of things makes me more stoked...because I know what's possible, development-wise...and we also benefit from the R&D already done. Example being the Honda K-Series, which has been developed up to 500hp NA and 1500hp+ Turbo.

I'm personally going to give Jan a fair shake when the time comes, and hopefully my further development of the package helps us all.

I felt compelled to post, although unplanned.

[Norm]

Aero Newbie here, but not a newbie with Honda Engines...by far.

In my perfect world, Jan would just sell me his FWF Mounts and PSRU to me.



Maybe you could develop your own redrive and mount and be his competition

[Suprdave]

That wouldn't really be productive at this point for anyone.

I'd probably be more than happy with the stock '130' Engine with a Straight Pipe off the Head and an ECU that had full control of the Direct Injection that also Integrated with the Can-Bus. Edge Performance uses an Autronic to control their Modded 912s. The only aftermarket ECU that would control the DI AND give benefits of Can-Bus and solid state wiring would be the Motec M170.

I'm just a fanboy, but the M1 series is literally the most reliable, customizable Engine Management out there, by far. You could hypothetically pair it with a PDM Solid state Wiring and have a fully programmable wiring harness that also talks to the can-bus. The M1 Build lets you create a custom firmware per application... You could program your landing lights to come on automatically below a certain altitude...any issues would pop up on-screen so you know what they are. The possibilities are endless honestly...

So I actually commend Jan for picking the engines he has to put all the R&D $ and work into. I'd never want to compete with him, if anything I'd like to add my knowledge to the Pot-Luck...

Coincidentally, I have a very solid understanding of a few things that ONLY apply in a new situation, created by Jan. Swapping Honda Engines into things they weren't supposed to go into originally, Frankensteining all the Legos together into the best combo Naturally-Aspirated, then realizing Turbos are the way forward.

Hondas are basically Lego Engines...the reason they can make reliable cars for cheap is that they put the same handful of engines in like every model.

The 'Viking 130' and the 'Viking 180' both have the exactly same shortblock.

Which means, you can swap all the heads from that Series Engine (L) on that block. You can easily get custom parts made because Manufacturers have an interest in adding those SKUs to their catalog. Or already have them on the shelf.

Let's use the Honda K-Series as an Example...the big brother basically...

The Heads Flow 250-290cfm on Superflow STOCK! There's meat on the bone to get over 400+cfm in Race Apps. So almost 300cfm Flow, AND 2 Camshaft Lifts...which completely change the VE, AND VTC so you can manipulate the Torque Curve, advancing at lower RPM to build torque and then retarding at higher RPM shifting the curve right.

Combine that with the Motec M1 and you literally take the complication out.

Takeoff - Climb - Cruise, all controlling different fuel maps\lambda\boost targets and also adjusting the Propeller Pitch.

I'm ranting, but its possible using Racecar Tech basically...Lamborghini uses the same computer in their https://squadracorse.lamborghini.com/cars/huracan-lp-620-2-super-trofeo

Anyways, enough ranting...basically IMO the Honda Engine Family overall starts from the best place technologically, since they push towards conservative power with efficiency and reliability.