runway length question

[Coopdog]

Hey Folks,

After a twenty year hiatus, I'm looking to fly again. I'll start working on currency with a CFI in a 172 real soon.

I really love the appeal of the STOL airplanes. We have a row crop field surrounded by woods where I can squeeze a grass strip of about 1,300' from tree to tree where the trees are approaching 100' tall.

I know how big a field can look from the ground and how small it can look from the air. However, I think rekindling my love of flying will be greatly enhanced if I can walk out the backdoor to my plane vs driving 35 minutes to the airport.

Is it realistic to think I can utilize a grass strip of that length consistently and safely? I'm in Tennessee about 400' MSL. We generally don't have unusual wind compared to other places.

Thanks for the advice.

[Av8r3400]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is maybe. These are very high obstacles bordering a short runway. With time and practice can you do it? Yes. Do you want to?

This will require your A++ game every time. With that length runway and that height of trees, this will be a no-go around situation.

Look at this video. Link (https://youtu.be/xoLbVFPlwFQ). This is my home-strip. It's 900' long. There are 50' trees on one end (500' away) and 25' trees on the other. This is landing over the tall trees.




Departure will be a non-event.

[Hockeystud87]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is maybe. These are very high obstacles bordering a short runway. With time and practice can you do it? Yes. Do you want to?

This will require your A++ game every time. With that length runway and that height of trees, this will be a no-go around situation.

Look at this video. Link (https://youtu.be/xoLbVFPlwFQ). This is my home-strip. It's 900' long. There are 50' trees on one end (500' away) and 25' trees on the other. This is landing over the tall trees.




Departure will be a non-event.


Dang! Thats a neat little strip but man those obstacles make me cringe a little!

The strip would be no biggie if ya had a little less trees.

[N981MS]

My advice is no. But if you buy the land with trees and extend your runway...

Some here may say OK.

Everyone has their own level of risk they are willing to take.

I like to have some sort of option for if something goes wrong.

If the engine quits on take off on that strip or at an inopportune time on approach you will be out of luck.

You did not say what type of trees or if you have access to them. Here is a very nonconventional procedure: I go to a field that is 1000 feet with 50 foot pecan trees at one end and clear on the other. The trees are in rows with space for a Kitfox between them. On approach I aim for that space just in case. I have not needed it for overrun. I have never taken off toward the trees but I have started my take off roll up in the trees such that I am near rotation speed when I emerge from the tree line.

[Slyfox]

my advice is to give more room than you need, or runway. I say maybe you could do it in a couple years. the big word here is hiatus. in other words you haven't flown is years. dreams are dreams and this is where you need to leave this. yes the experienced pilot could do this. I consistently land mine within 500' on a regular basis. but I have over 2000 hrs in my kitfox. I say pass on this one.

[Dave S]

Cooper,


I believe the smart money is right on what has been said already and I would reinforce that.


First off, coming off a 20 year hiatus and testing a newly built kitfox - just plain no - IMHO. Most of us are not at the Jimmy Franklin skill level.



The shortest grass runway I have ever flown into is a 900 foot ultralight strip with no obstructions other than 12' corn on the end and slowly rising terrain on both ends; and that was after practicing on longer runways till I knew there was no doubt about getting in an out. Loading can mean a lot on a short strip; and, it will likely take more runway to accelerate on grass in any case.



A lack of clear space on the ends & sides of a runway basically means a person is screwed if there is one hickup (engine, wind, hawk-in-the-windshield, etc).

[n85ae]

That 1000' runway would be a LOT shorter with 100 ft. obstacles. In fact in the
video, I can already feel my cringe factor coming up, since it feels too close to
the trees. I'd probably fly it higher and aggressively slip. But the GoPro always
makes it appear that way.

Jeff

[Esser]

Beautiful place Larry

[Coopdog]

Thank you all for the helpful advice. And that video is worth a thousand words. I don't think I'll plan on my idea as a permanent solution. I don't want to takeoff and immedietly start worrying about landing there.

I may have found a much better solution. We have another field that is a very short drive. I can get 1500' between a row of trees and standard utility poles. It is open fields on either side of the obstacles. I may be able to take a section of the tree row out which would give me a 1500' runway with an extra 1000' threshold with no obstacles on one end. It's going to take a bit of grading though.

[Av8r3400]

That would appear to be a much better option.

[avidflyer]

I flew off my strip which was 1500' long for years, and I had trees on the ends as well. Not100' tall though. I was able to lengthen it to 2000' a few years ago. We flew an Aeronca Chief out of the strip as well. A light earlier model Kitfox would be much easier to do it then a loaded up heavy engined later model of course. JImChuk

[fastfred]

Now that I am in a nose dragger does that increase the landing distance ? The tail dragger only used 300 of 900'.

[Dorsal]

I don't think so, should be about the same.

[fastfred]

It seems like it drifts a 100 feet more to land more tail up?

[PapuaPilot]

It seems like it drifts a 100 feet more to land more tail up?

If that is the case you must be coming in too fast and aren't near the stall speed and AOA.

[Norm]

It seems like it drifts a 100 feet more to land more tail up?

Yes it will continue to fly longer with the tail up. As you raise the nose the speed decays and the plane will settle to the runway. Paul talks about getting the nose up and the speed dropping in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRG0sOkGdkM

You probably do this as you flare, just try raising the nose a little sooner to bleed some speed.
There are also some videos on the net that talk about flying to the runway with a positive wing angle to the horizon to shorten touchdown. Done under power some call it dragging it in. Sometimes experience is the best teacher so go out and play with different approaches and try some different techniques. Just remember to fly safe.

[WWhunter]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is maybe. These are very high obstacles bordering a short runway. With time and practice can you do it? Yes. Do you want to?

This will require your A++ game every time. With that length runway and that height of trees, this will be a no-go around situation.

Look at this video. Link (https://youtu.be/xoLbVFPlwFQ). This is my home-strip. It's 900' long. There are 50' trees on one end (500' away) and 25' trees on the other. This is landing over the tall trees.




Departure will be a non-event.


I think this post pretty much sums it up. It really comes down to the pilot and his/her experience level.

I built a 1,000 foot strip at my place with tal trees on each end. I had purchased a Champ (heavily modified) that had an O-235C2C on floats. I took the floats off and was flying it on wheel gear in and out of this strip. No problems what so ever, unless of course you want to ask about the braking power of the stock Champ brakes! LOL I'll just say that they are nearly worthless when the plane is on 26" or bigger tires.

Others that flew over said I was crazy landing there and the only ones that would attempt it were Super Cub types. It all came down to knowing m plane. I have since lengthened it to 1,800 feet but still have trees on each end. I plan on flying my 172 in and out of it.

I think after you get a lot of time in your plane, it might be do able. Just get to know the 'on the edge' speeds of your plane.

[av8rps]

I think the comments here have been outstanding advice.

I have a 2450 ft grass strip with big 100 ft tall white pines on each end, so it officially has very large displaced thresholds of around 1400 ft. But a variety of planes like the Kitfox (Highlanders, Avid Flyer, etc) have gone in and out of there for years only using half of the 2450 ft. But lets face it, there is an extra level of assurance knowing you have an extra thousand plus feet in front of you if you need it.

Seeing that your strip wouldn't have that, I would at least initially count on having a very high pucker factor. To safely do 1300 ft I would highly recommend a lot of simulated short field approaches over an obstacle at a longer runway. Ideal would be if you can find a longer strip that has real tall trees and practice, practice, practice until you are confident you can get it down and stopped consistently in the space you will have available.

Oh, and there is a lot to be said for having the confidence needed to do it safely the first time. So do not attempt the short strip until you know you have the experience to consistently put it down safely in that distance.

And try to get as good as this guy with his Maule on YouTube from the video titled "Big Rocks And Long Props: Idaho Backcountry. http:// https://youtu.be/MQkdtHM-w7I (https://youtu.be/MQkdtHM-w7I)

;)

[Av8r3400]

...I have a 2450 ft grass strip with big 100 ft tall white pines on each end...




Yeah, but you gotta mow it once in a while!