New to the Kitfox Forum

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Hello all


Glad to be here. Hoping to build or buy a Kitfox in the next few years.


I live in Montrose Colorado and would love to fly the Western Slope and into Utah, New Mexico and Wyoming.


Looking to buy or build a top of the line Kitfox, with a fuel injected / turbo engine for power at altitude. Open to partnering with someone in my area if we had similar mindsets and finances. Would like to keep the plane at KMTJ.


I am a licensed pilot, single engine land, no tailwheel. Like to start with tri gear and then see if it's necessary to switch over to tailwheel configuration. Have a bit more than a hundred hours logged as PIC, and more time informally.



I've created a spreadsheet with all the costs I think would be involved in building a Kitfox, and am working on tightening up the numbers and also comparing the different models available and also the factory-built option. I've used the factory pricing and talked to them, and then estimated the owner-supplied items. Obviously it's geared toward my preferences, but it may be helpful for others and so I am happy to share. Would love to get feedback from anyone with direct knowledge. It's an excel spreadsheet.


Clear Skies,


David

[tjentzsch]

Welcome David. I to am looking to buy or build a KF (in the hopefully near future).

I would be interesting you your spreadsheet if you don't mind sharing it? I have put together a VERY rudimentary cost list as well, but love seeing the thoughts and ideas of others.

I am in Utah, and my biggest concern first is finding a place to build if I go that route, which I would like for the challenge and amazing learning opportunity. I have never undertaken anything quite like this, and while building seems very daunting, from the videos and reading I have done it seem like its just a LOT of little things that take a LOT of time and not overly difficult.

I have heard that there are some specialty tools needed that KF sales for 400 bucks (which seems pricey, but save a boat load of time sourcing separately)

Look forward to your progress. Keep us up to date.

[efwd]

well if that spread sheet works out correctly you should be seeing 80-90K for you to build a top notch KF. Kinda depends on what you consider top notch. Some folks here prefer Steam gauges and consider that top notch enough. Others use panel displays etc etc.. Different paints will vary in cost depending on the gear needed to apply it. Lots of different factors.

[tjentzsch]

80-90k seems well high, but perhaps I am underestimating everything.

[efwd]

roughly 25k for plane, 22K for 912is with exhaust thats no longer included in the 912is price, 18K for a fully loaded panel (auto pilot, ADSB In/out xpndr, dual screen panel, Comm radio not to mention ELT and LED nav/landing lights or the electrical wiring. Top of the line lights will run $1000. Thats 67K. consider paint. You can spend over 1000 on breathing apparatus alone if you use nice shiny paint that will run you several thousand more if I am not mistaken. OK, now were talking 70 plus. I did save on paint by using Oratex but the Oratex cost me about 6-7K. Oh yes, interior kit. Don't recall the price but its over 1000.How close am I now? Oh, Propeller and spinner, 2K. Except where my craftsmanship has suffered I think I will have a top notch Kitfox SS7. There are many aspects of the build that will drive the price. You certainly don't need to do all this to accomplish a beautiful top notch aircraft and some people have incredible abilities in negotiation. I don't. I have so many of the upgrades (but not all). Im also including the cost of two BoseA20 headsets for which I had to spend more money to operate them via aircraft power (lemo plugs). If you chose to primer the wing spars youll be buying primer and supplies as well. I believe I am pretty close, no? Go fly a Kitfox then let me know if you think it's worth it! Best damn money I have ever spent! Could have bought a bigger house but I can assure you I would not be having the conversations that I have wherever I go about the house. ;) Welcome to the forum.:D

[tjentzsch]

Ya, that adds up fast.
I know avionics can add to the high price, but for my build I would like to keep it simple and clean, without sacrificing safety.
Guess the cost might by growing beyond my reach lol. I hope not, but its looking like it for all the bells and whistles.

I am doing some research to try and find good avionics without going crazy. KF says they offer a discount on the engine if yo buy from them. Lets hope that is a good discount lol.

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Hey guys here is that spreadsheet with a couple of caveats.


1) I'm a building contractor so I organize things in a way that makes sense to me but might not be the 'right' way. Some of you will say right away that my numbers are high and the total cost is outrageous. Those who have built any kind of major project will confirm that it always costs more than you think. Obviously I'll try for some buydowns once the project rolls, but for planning purposes it's better to be conservative.



2) One thing I don't want is an underpowered airplane so I've priced in $30K for the Edge Performance engine, which is a 912 upgraded with turbo and fuel injection. I talked to that guy and felt good about this choice. KMTJ is 5770' MSL and the surrounding terrain rises quickly. Want to be able to power on up and over.


3) I use Foreflight on the iPad for navigating, so don't need a PFD or MFD. So I have not included that, used steam gauges and mount the iPad. I also use a Stratus GPS. Rotax should have its own engine gauges and such.


4) My time is precious so I've priced in the quick build wing kit, factory wing attach, builder tool kit, etc. Anything that Kitfox can do will be worth the money spent to have it done right and accelerate the build time.


5) Some of the cells are not populated for the STI and Speedster and SLSA columns. I would need to get with Kitfox to go over these and see what is included and not included.


I had to convert the file to pdf to upload it to this forum but if anyone wants the excel file just PM me with an email address. Then you can play around with it, plug in your own numbers, change the configuration, and so on. Shouldn't have to say it but of course this data is just my opinion, not sanctioned by Kitfox, subject to change, not for commercial use etc. etc.

[tjentzsch]

That is a sexy bit of work right there on the info, well done, and TYVM!

I like what I am seeing. Seems very reasonable based on options you selected. I have had a hard time deciding on exactly what to have build at the factory, and what to build myself. I like the idea of having the wings done factory, and the rest myself.

Again, well done on your organization and prep work, much appreciated. I look forward to your build.

Question though. On the items listed as included, I assume you mean they are included in the package price and not extras?

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Thanks for the pos feedback. Would be cool if you and I both built and then have a meetup in Eastern Utah, drop down into some of those canyons and play podracer ...


Yes, 'included' means it is included in a price listed, usually directly above. I wanted a separate line item for each thing but if the cost is for a package or bundled goods, then I wrote 'included' to mean its cost is already accounted for.


You can see I still have some questions - need to get on the phone with Kitfox again. But I think overall I'm pretty close. Basically to do what I want to do will cost $100K in materials and supplies and miscellaneous, and then extra for space / structure, paid labor, accessories, training and so on. I have not listed any costs of ownership, but with a plane like this they shouldn't be too crazy. I'm hoping to find someone else in my area, each put up $50K and share the workload to build. Might be a pipe dream but you never know. I'm 50 years old so don't want to wait too long ...

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Thanks Eddie that's good rough estimating and sounds like we share some similar ideas. What do you need a bigger house for nowadays anyway? All my albums tapes and CDs fit on my phone, books go to the iPad and having a bunch of houseguests all the time gets old fast. An airplane on the other hand - something that will whisk you off the ground and into another world in minutes, a transporter to vacant mountains and forgotten canyons ...

[tjentzsch]

I love love to meet up! Maybe having someone going through the process would be a great motivator!

I saw a few things I probably would change a little in hopes of bring cost down. I might not go for the turbo engine, but at least FI. I live at about 4700 feet and the extra power I'm sure would be great, but having the FI would solve alot over carbs.

[efwd]

I can see where you could trim some of the numbers for sure. Instead of buying the nose gear, use that same amount and get tail wheel endorsed for example.
EMU? well, the 912iS requires some sort of screen. It is not included. If your using steam gauges youll have to incorporate some electronic device to see your engine instruments.
You know, I flew all around Boise without a turbo. What was really nice about Stick and Rudders plane was the constant speed prop. I want one. Maybe later.

[jiott]

A 100 hp Kitfox is definitely not "underpowered"; if you put on a constant speed prop it is a rocket. In my opinion, the turbo is only needed if you consistently fly at very high altitudes.

[tjentzsch]

I mean this genuinely, but what do you consider very high altitudes?

[jiott]

Takeoffs at roughly 5000'+. This is just my own opinion. I have occasionally taken off at density altitudes of over 8000' with my 100 hp with no problems, but obviously a longer ground run.

[KitKarson]

Nice spread sheet!

[tjentzsch]

Takeoffs at roughly 5000'+. This is just my own opinion. I have occasionally taken off at density altitudes of over 8000' with my 100 hp with no problems, but obviously a longer ground run.

Ya, it seems my average altitude in Utah, or rather around the Salt Lake Valley are 5k feet. The mountain areas I would love fly would be greater. I'm pretty sure the 100 HP FI motor will do wonders for me for many years.

[aviator79]

My field elevation is 7200, and we routinely have DA in the neighborhood of 10k, so I opted for the turbo. If I lived lower, I would have done the 912iS. I flew the 912iS with an airmaster at Stick and Rudder, and it did not struggle in the Backcountry.

[tjentzsch]

That is good to hear. I'm sure the 912iS would perform very well for my needs.

Wrapping my head around the cost is a fun one LOL. Hopefully I can find a damn good loan and get some wiggle room on cost. I live about 6 hours from the KF factory so I could pick it up and same on shipping costs. Plus, it would make a fun start to a vlog series.

[GuppyWN]

You haven’t priced a kit in awhile have you? It’s almost 40k with normal options and a firewall forward kit.

[tjentzsch]

25k is what is currently listed on KF site for the SS7

[GuppyWN]

Base price. Add the options. Dual brakes. Adjustable rudder pedals. Etc. etc. want a heater? Lights. All costs money that’s not included in the base kit. Then go to page 10 where you’ll see $4795 for a firewall forward kit.

Not knocking it. It is what it is but it’s nownere near $25k for a Kitfox minus engine.

[tjentzsch]

Base price. Add the options. Dual brakes. Adjustable rudder pedals. Etc. etc. want a heater? Lights. All costs money that’s not included in the base kit. Then go to page 10 where you’ll see $4795 for a firewall forward kit.

Not knocking it. It is what it is but it’s nownere near $25k for a Kitfox minus engine.

Correct. I thought the other costs were touched on on a previous page.

[efwd]

Yes Guppy there has been some inflation Im certain. my engine lists for about $1300 more than I paid. I paid for everything 3 years ago. My list was not exhaustive. I couldn't possibly list everything that added up to my stated costs. I in fact did not state the firewall forward cost. Now are we approaching at least Mid 80Ks. The KF doesn't have to be decked out for it to be a blast to fly. If you need to keep well under this amount then just build it old school. They are just as gratifying.

[aviator79]

If you make all your decisions based on marginal costs, it adds up fast. "Gosh the autopilot is already built into the EFIS, so I would just need to buy there servos..."

Then you'll read things here or see someone else's plane and realize you really did want the in-panel espresso machine, so you call Debra.

[PapuaPilot]

I remember John McBean saying a few years ago to plan on $25k for the kit, $25k for the engine and $25k for the avionics and "other" things. It was good advice and I took it to mean the bare minimums. That was a while ago so the $75K has probably gone up to $85-90K.

The price keeps going up form there as you upgrade the engine, prop, avionics, tires, fabric (Oratex), autopilot, the expresso machine, etc. ;)

No matter how well you budget and plan it is going to cost a little more. You are going to find you need more tools, supplies, another gallon of paint, etc. Even the best laid plan should expect an extra 10% in cost.

[efwd]

If your really good at rationalizing you just say that all the miscellaneous costs are just the cost of living life. What would I have spent going out to do things other than spending time in the garage having a blast building a damn plane of all things! Some tape here some Denatured alcohol there some PVC pipe and plastic sheet for a paint booth. Eh, would have been spent anyhow had I gone up to the mountains for the weekend to camp or ski or whatever I have not done in the past 2 years. Just get started, Live a little.

[tjentzsch]

Ya, costs will balloon I'm sure. Still, having a good plan and and working hard to stick to it, one cold still build it at about 80k.

Not to be nosy, but how many people were able to pay for their kits without a loan of some kind? Did ya'll have the money just saved up and bought it, or did some have to use a loan for the whole thing?

[ken nougaret]

I already had a rainy day fund saved up. And it certainly wasnt earning much interest in the bank. But i was able to get my SS7 done for about $55k. I already had an O-200 that i rebuilt myself. I only have about $12k in the engine. And i wanted steam gauges, half of which are used. As well as a used comm and transponder. I have less than $5k in my panel. And my wife is good at sewing so she made the seats, interior and baggage sack.
It's all in what you want and how resouceful you are.
Ken

[ken nougaret]

Forgot to mention another note on finances. Back a few years when i bought a piper cherokee and didnt have all the money i got a home equity line of credit and that worked out well because they didnt have to know what the money was being used for and its interest rate was low.

[tjentzsch]

I already had a rainy day fund saved up. And it certainly wasnt earning much interest in the bank. But i was able to get my SS7 done for about $55k. I already had an O-200 that i rebuilt myself. I only have about $12k in the engine. And i wanted steam gauges, half of which are used. As well as a used comm and transponder. I have less than $5k in my panel. And my wife is good at sewing so she made the seats, interior and baggage sack.
It's all in what you want and how resouceful you are.
Ken

Great info, thank you.

[ejoern]

Hello David,

Always great to see more Colorado Kitfox builders. I just received my airworthiness cert on my Super Sport and am planning to fly here shortly. I live in Colorado Springs and there are a few other Kitfox builders in this area and Denver. If your in the area, I would be happy to show you my build. Good luck!

Eric

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Awesome Eric I would love to get together. Next time I head over to the Front Range I'll get in touch and we can meet up. Love to see what you've done and hear your story.


David

[WestColoradoHopeful]

Hey guys


Great to see all the chat going on here. As a new member to the forum I have a lot of catching up to do.


I might say another few words about my approach to cost. I've done a lot of projects in my life, mostly construction but also some other types of things like event planning, school programs and a cruising sailboat in the Caribbean. I know from experience that I always see things in a rosy light when I'm first thinking about them and planning them. And no matter how much time and effort I spend in the lead up phase, I always get hammered a bit during the execution phase.



Building contractors love to low ball project costs to clients in order to get the project rolling and secure the contract. I've lost a lot of jobs over the years to these guys, because my estimates were thorough and conservative. And I've also underbid and had to eat the shortfall ! Not fun.


So I tend to be as complete as I can (the spreadsheet) and price for what I know I can buy for, not for what I hope I can negotiate for later.


Also there is inflation. When I first did the spreadsheet last year the total cost was less because the kit package and component costs were less. When I went to check it over I noticed Kitfox had increased their prices on almost everything. In addition to those increases, with a project that could take 1-5 years you may want to plan for additional price increases unless you can buy everything right away.


Another consideration for me is that I always want to do things at the highest quality level I am capable of. So I know that if there is a component that costs x dollars and a better component that costs x + 20% dollars I will probably go for the better item. One reason I have never started an airplane build project is that I want to make sure I have at least 50% of the total cost in cash at the beginning.


I owned a sailboat for a couple of years - my life dream to leave the country and live on the cheap in the tropics. What an education that was. Every time I turned around I had to drop a couple hundred bucks, and anything of real note cost in the thousands. I burned through my entire life savings in two and a half years and sold it for pennies on the dollar. It was a powerful lesson - one I would not wish on anyone of modest means.


So what I'm trying to say in a long-winded post is that YOU may be able to build a Kitfox for way less than I can. If you are crafty and have modest expectations and plenty of time etc. There's always guys who are really good at maximising every penny spent.

[efwd]

"Another consideration for me is that I always want to do things at the highest quality level I am capable of. So I know that if there is a component that costs x dollars and a better component that costs x + 20% dollars I will probably go for the better item."
I had to look up to see if I had wrote that. Thats Exactly how I am. I mean, Why do I have the second Garmin screen on my Panel?. One would have been more than enough.

[aviator79]

...I always see things in a rosy light when I'm first thinking about them and planning them.

...Every time I turned around I had to drop a couple hundred bucks, and anything of real note cost in the thousands.

I think these statements sum up the reality of the situation, and I think your estimate is probably not unreasonable.

I have not kept an accounting down the the nearest hundred bucks. I can say for sure that my major purchases total ~$90k, and that's pretty much the best of everything: All the popular options, Rotax 914, Airmaster Prop, Dynon/AFS QuickPanel, factory interior etc. The only "break" I got was on a freshly overhauled 914 for $24k, instead of the nearly $32k that a new one costs.

Every month, I spend more on tools, consumables, and things that are required that don't come with the kit. The kit is very comprehensive, but does not come with all the Poly Fiber chemicals you need to cover it. I also periodically find out that there is some option I thought I didn't need, but change my mind as time passes, and the big hit of the initial order fades from memory. All this has added several thousand dollars. Why don't I track it closely? Because to me it's money spent on a hobby, so I keep it in that budget category. Fretting over the expense would detract from the experience.

If you get lucky, are patient, and/or are wiling to settle for not exactly what you want, you can find used engines, props, and avionics that can bring the cost down substantially. Otherwise, a bare-bones S7 will cost at least $70k to build if you start now.

[WestColoradoHopeful]

I think these statements sum up the reality of the situation, and I think your estimate is probably not unreasonable.

I have not kept an accounting down the the nearest hundred bucks. I can say for sure that my major purchases total ~$90k, and that's pretty much the best of everything: All the popular options, Rotax 914, Airmaster Prop, Dynon/AFS QuickPanel, factory interior etc. The only "break" I got was on a freshly overhauled 914 for $24k, instead of the nearly $32k that a new one costs.

Every month, I spend more on tools, consumables, and things that are required that don't come with the kit. The kit is very comprehensive, but does not come with all the Poly Fiber chemicals you need to cover it. I also periodically find out that there is some option I thought I didn't need, but change my mind as time passes, and the big hit of the initial order fades from memory. All this has added several thousand dollars. Why don't I track it closely? Because to me it's money spent on a hobby, so I keep it in that budget category. Fretting over the expense would detract from the experience.

If you get lucky, are patient, and/or are wiling to settle for not exactly what you want, you can find used engines, props, and avionics that can bring the cost down substantially. Otherwise, a bare-bones S7 will cost at least $70k to build if you start now.


Hey Brian that is awesome to hear about your build. You sound pretty resourceful and still somewhat relaxed about the whole thing. Seems like you're going top of the line on this project. Let's stay in touch.


I'm feeling good about my $100,000 budget. Might be a bit high but probably just about right. Any savings I can find I'll use to offset some of the other miscellaneous costs that fall outside of actual materials and supplies.


How far along are you ? Are you doing tri gear or tailwheel ?

[aviator79]

How far along are you ? Are you doing tri gear or tailwheel ?

Look here (http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8427). I try to update weekly.