Hopeful Kitfox Owner

[mstaley48]

Hey all,

My name is Matt Staley, I'm in southwest Ohio (Xenia) and recently began my venture to obtaining my PPL. I'm still in the early phases of working on my license however owning my own plane has already been on my mind! I'll be honest in saying that Kitfox was brought to my attention by watching some of Trent Palmer's videos, which I think are excellent in marketing the capability of the Kitfox. I had also looked at the Rans S20 Raven and S21 Outbound before landing here.

At this point I'm just looking for some experience from members on a realistic and cost effective approach to owning my own aircraft. I've looked on Barnstormers and similar online classifieds for Kitfox IV - V's and the inventory is extremely low, if not absent. The idea of building is appealing to me but the cost seems very hazy. I know that the kit costs are clearly laid out online, but what does a "real" build number look like by time you hit the runway for the first time? I had been looking at the 7 STI to have similar capabilities to Trent's Freedom Fox with a Rotax 912. Just looking for any input on building vs. buying, and the realistic cost of both! Thanks!

[Esser]

I’m about $60,000USD in on mine. I got a great deal on a used engine and prop or else I would be closer to $85k. My instruments are also used.

[mstaley48]

Thanks for the reply! That's really the basis of why I put this out there...most IV and V's I have seen online are in the mid to upper 50k range and I know I would like to make changes to them (i.e. more expense).

[efwd]

I think Josh's numbers are right on.
Eddie

[aviator79]

At this point I'm just looking for some experience from members on a realistic and cost effective approach to owning my own aircraft.

While the Kitfox market is tight right now (Thanks Trent Palmer and Kyle Franklin), the answer to this question as you've stated it is to buy a used experimental.

The cost to build seems hazy because it is. I would guess that Josh's $85 number is close to the median for what someone spends. That would include a bunch of the popular options, but may not include all the nickels and dimes spent on small tools and consumables. If you're patient, and ready to make a move on a sale quickly when the right plane comes along, you could spend a lot less than that on a nice IV, and could even score a nice 5, 6, or 7 for that price or less. So you really won't save much money by building. You build because you want to build. You buy because you want to own.

[mstaley48]

That's honestly where my mind was at but you summed it up perfect. I'll be patient as I continue to learn on my aeroclub planes and keep my eyes peeled for a nice used aircraft. I'm a FF/Paramedic and my wife is an ER nurse, so while we don't do too bad on our income, $85,000 would be the definite high end of the budget for an aircraft. Thanks!

[jiott]

In figuring costs, don't forget one of the big long term advantages to building is that you become the repairman for that airplane and can do and sign off any repair or annual condition inspection. This can save thousands over the years to come.

[avidflyer]

You don't need the repairman's cert to do repairs on an experimental, but it will allow you to do the conditional inspection on the particular aircraft.

[jiott]

That's right, I should have clarified that.

[efwd]

while we are on this topic, Does "work on" also include making major modifications like engine or wing changes?
Eddie

[aviator79]

Yes it does. You just can't get a repairman cert.

[mstaley48]

How does that work if you buy an experimental someone else built? Do you have to be the original builder to be able to perform maintenance and do the annual? That was one major reason I was leaning experimental vs. say, a Cessna or Piper.

[aviator79]

You can do all maintenance, repairs, and modifications on an experimental, even if you didn't build it. The only thing you can't do is the annual condition inspection, which can be done by any A&P. No IA required. So you do want to make sure you have access to an A&P who is comfortable inspecting experimentals that are maintained tained by their owners.

[HighWing]

A thought. I just re-read the statement my Airworthiness inspector from the FAA gave me - several adhesive labels I could paste and sign in my logbook and the referenced passage in the FARS and nowhere does it even imply that the person signing the logbook is the same person that performed the inspection. Residing, as I do, in a residential airpark, I frequently talk to owners participating in annual inspections - upgrades and repairs on certified aircraft - that do much if not all of the work - using mutually agreeable checklists and procedures. Then with a review and visual check as necessary, the logbook is signed by one holding the appropriate certificate.

[aviator79]

I frequently talk to owners participating in annual inspections - upgrades and repairs on certified aircraft - that do much if not all of the work - using mutually agreeable checklists and procedures. Then with a review and visual check as necessary, the logbook is signed by one holding the appropriate certificate.

I also know people who have arrangements like this. It usually requires a personal relationship with a mechanic who is intimately familiar with the owner's mechanical aptitude. It's also not strictly legal unless the authorized mechanic is present, and never for an annual inspection. The relevant regulation is 43.3(d):

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.

[beeryboats]

(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.[/QUOTE]

When my dad had his Piper Vagabond or Clipper in for an annual, he as an A&P would open up and un-cowl the airplane for the IA. He would also lube pulleys and wheel bearings plus other maintenance items, clean and gap plugs etc. As I'm reading the above, those are maintenance items, not something an inspector is going to do.
So I can do all those things necessary once a year, enter them in the log, then the inspector, A&P, signs off the inspection? I do have a short list of upgrades to my IV that will require a new W&B done. And I will have to fly off time with a new prop... That's another whole thread of questions.
Jay

[coosbo]

I'm currently trying to make a similar decision. I'm not sure if I should be starting a new thread or add to this older thread. I would like to purchase a kit to build and after probably a year or so of research, I've narrowed it down to the Kitfox SS and the Rans S-21 Outbound. I would like to get a few thoughts from Kitfox bias people that have experience with both, if there are any. I've posted the same thing on the Rans forum. :cool:

So far, here are what I believe to be the pros and cons.
Kitfox pros - folding wings, generous baggage load, great build manual reviews, very active building community, flaperons (i think, since I've never actually flown)
Kitfox cons - very long wait time

Outbound pros - slightly larger, factory is half a days drive from me, aluminum wings (I know this is a con for some), large fuel capacity, nice seats, seems from watching both communities forums the outbound has a little faster build time, easy to purchase individual kits as I'm ready for them
Outbound cons - wings don't fold

It may be helpful to give a little bit of my background and explain my mission. I'm a 31 year old low time private pilot and would like to build something I can fly the rest of my life. I have zero experience building a plane, but I have access to local expertise and I have spent most of my life building countless other things. I have enough disposable income to enjoy GA, but it's limited enough that am very motivated to fly cheep. Most of my future aircraft's time will be spent making a 250 mile commute from a charlie airport to a family ranch with no established runway. Landings will be made in a rough but flat sandy soil grass pasture with no obstacles. The rest of the time I would like to fly low and slow for pleasure, with occasional cross-country trips.

The image that I've hopefully inserted below is a comparison of the specs I've found on the two companies website. The specs are very similar, so I'm wondering interested in the difference that one won't find it the specs.

22384

I appreciate everyone's time and willingness to share their knowledge.

[jiott]

The longer wait time for the Kitfox tells you a lot.
Kitfox empty weight is realistically about 800+ lbs. Realistic cruise with fixed prop is 100-110 mph at 4 gph.

[Meyer]

The $62K number is interesting. If you haven't already, I would get on Kitfox's site and build a detailed spreadsheet behind that. Kit, options, avionics, engine, prop, paint. You could do it for $62K, but it would have to be steam gauges or some used parts. If you are patient you can get an unfinished kit, low time engine maybe.

Good luck on your journey, there is alot of support here.

A friend ordered an S21 recently. He is underwhelmed with the support on that side.

[aviator79]

I think the Kitfox performance specifications are reasonable at sea level. The 120 mph TAS cruise is easily achieved or exceeded if you have a constant speed or in-flight adjustable prop, which you probably won't have if you're on a $62k budget.

Long ago, someone told me the a formula for determining the cost to build an airplane:
1) Make a spreadsheet that includes the kit, the engine, and the prop, plus every nut, bolt, and gallon of paint.
2) Double that number
3) Add radios.

While that's tongue in cheek, I would guess it's a strong minority of builders that spend an amount less than or equal to their original budget. The $62,000 figure is only anywhere close if you:
-Forego many of the popular options on your kit
-Go with a 912 ULS engine and ground adjustable prop (Or score awesome deals on used/overhauled stuff)
-You don't include various tools and consumables that you will inevitably purchase over the course of the build.

Don't underestimate the importance of this part... Only about 25% of new E-AB kits are completed by the original purchaser. I believe, based on anecdotal evidence on this forum, that the rate is substantially higher for the Kitfox. I attribute this to the level of support available. Even with the recent surge in demand for their product, John, Debra, Heather, and Brandon at Kitfox are amazing. They will answer your questions, get parts sent out quickly when you need them, and become your friends. Combine that with the expertise and experience on this forum, and I guarantee you will have all the support you need to finish your plane.

Good luck! I hope to follow your build thread soon.

[efwd]

Amen Brian. I concur 100%. You could not have explained that any better than that.