Second hand market value is really low...

[WiVM]

Hi,

I am considering to build an S7 STi, but I honestly was discouraged by the value of a Kitfox on the second hand market (in Europe!).

Based on my research I see that S1s remain well under 12.000 USD. S2s are under 16.000 USD and S3 under 28.000 USD, while S4 are only a fraction more than the S3.
I know it strongly depends on the logged time, quality, etc, but they all looked around 400-600 hours which is not that "old" in my opinion.

My feeling is that people (in Europe) see the Kitfox as an ultralight rather than an LSA. Especially France is in that case. There you tend to find them in the ultralight community for some reason. But also all of my friends seems to have the perception that it are ultralights... This is of course completely wrong as an ultralight as a MTOW around 992 lbs in Europe. This might change as manufacturers are pushing EASA to 1300 lbs. The Kitfox is an LSA at the moment, that is a fact, but the community feel different apparently.
My concern is that if you invest like 70.000 USD in an S7 STi and get only half (or maybe less) of the new value in return, then it is rather disappointing... I know we don't built aircraft to resell, at least I don't, but I am a bit shocked... at some point we are selling our aircraft, don't we.

Second I notice that the factory is giving 1000 hours or 18 month as average build time. Even 200 less with quick build wings. Looking at the builder log websites, this looks VERY optimistic. What are realistic build times?

Thank you!

[PapuaPilot]

I don’t think you have to worry about the value of a new Kitfox. The prices you list for the model 1 to 3 are about the same that they would sell for in the US. If you see a low time model 7 for sale it is going to be $50,000 or more.

The early models 1-3 were basically ultralights and the model 4 got the gross weight up to 1200 pounds. The model 5-7 isn’t an ultralight, the gross weight is 1550 pounds.

Here is a copy of the Kitfox models.

[WiVM]

Interesting... nice overview. But Kitfox is mentioning that it was structurally tested to 1550 lbs, but haven't they changed that to 1320 lbs to align with the LSA requirements? I know FAA is more easy on this, but not sure if EASA will accept it at 1550 lbs...

[PapuaPilot]

In the USA if we want it to be an LSA then it needs to be registered at 1320 pounds when we get the airworthiness certificate, but the plane can be certified up to 1550. I don’t know what EASA allows, but even at 1320 pounds a Kitfox has a good useful load (especially with the Rotax engine).

[WWhunter]

WiVM,

I think the market might be a little different here. Kitfox's generally hold decent value. As long as the plane is a good example, it will bring a good return. The newer Model 7's are sought after and finding a good deal is hard unless you are lucky.

Here in the US is is basically a paperwork issue. The plane is build to handle the higher gross weight but if a person wants to fly it under the LSA rules, it can be registered with a gross to meet that regulation (ie. 1320 lbs.) No changes what so ever to the plane. But the down side to this, if the next owner wants to fly it at the higher GW that the plane is designed for, they can apply for an increase in the gross weight with doing nothing more than a paperwork approval. Unfortunately,, if this second owner decides to sell the plane and the next buyer wants to fly the plane under LSA rules, he can not! The rules were written in a way that if the gross weight has EVER been raised above the 1320 lb. GW, it can NEVER be lowered. This is bad, since it was just a paperwork change, but that is how the rules must be followed.

Hope this helps.

[WiVM]

Hi,

That the more recent models sell really fast might be the reason that I don't find any to compare the prices with. It was just an eye-opener for me to see the older models sell for so little money. But as explained by PapuaPilot they are not comparable by the current series.

I contacted a S7 builder from this forum in the UK. He will have to work under LAA rules in UK. I curious to know how he was able to register his project.

Thanks again

[av8rps]

If you go back to the years the earlier Model Kitfoxes were produced you will notice that the current selling price is relative to the cost to build at the time.

In other words, if you have 1980's era Model 1 or 2 Kitfox the kit price was around $10,000 to $12,000, which at that time included the engine and instruments, pretty much everything needed to complete the aircraft.

Then move ahead to a 1990's era Model 4 Kitfox and you will find that it would cost somewhere between 20 and 30 thousand dollars to build one at that time (E.G., Rotax 912 was only $8,995 at the time, and kits 14-16k) Hence, Model 4's today ready to fly run in the 20 to 30 range, and mid to upper 30's for a really nice one.

So the fact is that if you build a Kitfox today, even though it will cost more today than it would have in the past, when you are done playing with it you are likely to get your original monetary investment back when you sell it. Maybe more if it is really a nice one.

And if your friends perceive it as an ultralight, who cares? You're likely going to outperform what they are flying, all while having one of the most versatile aircraft ever designed, as well as one of the most affordable to maintain and operate.

And on top of all that, you'll be having a lot more fun too. I'm not sure you can find a more fun airplane :cool: