First Timer' Annoying Questions

[Far_Fox]

Hello Kitfoxlings,

I know these questions have probably been asked many times on here, but searching among threads I have not been able to find anything. Skip the the bottom if you don't feel like reading a lot of crap.

A little background on me: I Started flying when I was 15 at a local airport here in Michigan. When I turned 17 I went to a full time flight school in Daytona Beach, FL, and when I was 19 to an agricultural flight school in GA to get my commercial license, where I got hooked on taildraggers. Then it was off to college and long story short... I am 30 now and have not flown much since then. I had to put career life first, and now that things are settling down, it's time to get back into it. I think this will be the year I can make it happen. Thanks to the fact that the girlfriend hates my house (kitchens too small) I decided FINE, I will sell mine, stay at hers and the equity I get will fund a kitfox and a hanger (Not a bad trade in my book). :)

After talking to a few people at the local EAA meetings and on the internet... the following things make me nervous. The maintenance costs of owning a factory built aircraft is scary for someone who's not loaded like me. That is why I looked at building one.

However, the people I have talked to all ask "why the heck do you want to build one? If you are retired and have time then maybe building is a good idea" You should buy a cheap plane and start flying again. Well, I am not familiar with what annuals cost, which things go wrong the most and how much those cost to maintain. The last thing I want is to buy a plane and a year later have to spend 15,000$ in maintenance. Like I said, I am not familiar with these costs...maybe its not as bad as I think. If I did not think it was so bad, I would maybe look at a factory built Kitfox.

So this leads me to buying a kit, something I can fly north to remote strips and take my fly rod and camping gear. Something I can take into the Canadian wilderness and film epic fishing or hunting adventures. The kitfox seems to be a great choice, and I think I can fit both my dogs in the baggage area as well (bonus!).

The reason why the individuals I have talked to are telling me to lean away from building is the actual build time. So I thought I would ask you folks how long it took for you to build yours and how many hours a week did you spend working on it?

These people are telling me, no way will you have it done in 18 months...multiply that by 3. I have met a couple people who have been working on them for 6 years or more. I have read on here people buying kits as the 3rd or 4th builder on the kit and its still not done.

Well, I really do not want to spend the next 4.5 years building. I do not have kids, I am not married yet, and I think I am a fairly handy person when it comes to working on stuff. I would be able to tackle some hours a couple nights a week and at least most every weekend assuming the lady is content. Holidays as well. I feel that my time is running out and once I put a ring on her finger then the possibility of getting a plane will be much tougher!

What advice can you guys give me? How long did it take you to you build yours, and how often did you work on it? What were the biggest challenges? And, what are your thoughts on cost of maintenance on a factory build Kitfox?


Thank you for taking the time to read this, you guys rock.

-Adam

:)

[aviator79]

You have pretty clearly articulated the factors that go into this decision that pretty much everyone here had to weigh and consider. I'll give you my opinions, which are free and worth every penny.

1.) Owning a certified airplane: Yes, the expense is real, significant, and ungodly. I'm in a flying club that owns a Cessna 177. As airplanes go, it doesn't have a lot of complexity to maintain, and it is expensive. We've had several surprise expenses where the parts cost $1000 or more, and then you're looking at $80/hr for an A&P's time. The annual is $1600 for the inspection only, it can easily be $2-$3k by the time we're done. If you buy an inexpensive plane, it will be old. Old things break when you start flying them a lot, and those things cost a lot of money on a certified plane. The acquisition cost is a secondary consideration to what it takes to feed and care for a certified plane. $15,000 in maintenance wouldn't shock me at all.

2.) Building. I hate to say it, but your friends aren't really wrong. More than 75% of kit aircraft are not completed by the original purchaser. Our EAA tech counselor says that most of the people he's known take 5-10 years to build their first plane. That's the bad news. The good news is that among kit aircraft, a Kitfox is a pretty simple machine, and there is tons of factory and community support to help you finish. The construction techniques aren't complicated, and the "hard" stuff can be learned through EAA workshops, etc. Without any supporting evidence, I would bet good money that the Kitfox averages are substantially better than the 75% and 5-10 years above. Still, 18 months is very aggressive. I've seen that quoted as an average for someone with a full time job and family, but find it a bit of a stretch if you poke around on this forum. You don't see many finished on that timetable. I'm about 2 months into my build, and feel like I'm on a good pace to do it <=2 years, but I don't have a goal date in mind. Instead, I use number of hours/week as my progress goal (15-20 hrs/wk). I think if you want to finish, you have to enjoy the building. If building to you is just a means to obtaining an airplane, I think you're likely to find yourself among the 75%. Also, if you think you might be getting married or starting a family in the next few years, you want to make sure that building an airplane is part of the discussion. Big life events like that are among the things that result in partially complete sold kits.

3.) The best value in general aviation, strictly from a cost perspective, is to buy someone else's completed homebuilt. You typically will pay less, all considered, than you would to build it. You can do all your own maintenance, use non-certified parts, and any A&P can sign off your yearly condition inspection. If you don't think you'd enjoy building for it's own sake, this is the way to go. Unfortunately, the Kitfox market is pretty hot right now. Airplanes don't stay on the market long, and nice 5-7 models can easily be $60k. A Model IV-1200 would be substantially cheaper, but they still don't typically stay on the market more than a few days.

[aviator79]

If I did not think it was so bad, I would maybe look at a factory built Kitfox.


I overlooked this last bit of your consideration of factory-built planes. Nothing I said applies to a factory-fresh S-LSA. You can take a class and do your own maintenance, use non-certified parts, etc. If you can afford to go this route, go for it. You'd get a great plane. The downside is... The market is hot. 2-3 year wait for delivery of a factory-built Kitfox.

[Far_Fox]

Man, this makes my decision even tougher. General aviation route is definitely a no for now at this point in my life. The SLA route seems good (especially if I can take a class to do maintenance on it), but for the 2-3 year wait I am pretty much in the same boat where I cannot fly. I mean if I get the quick build wings, and any other quick build options maybe that will help my time. My Goal would be under 2 years to have it done.

I was reading horror stories of people saying if you build one, you cannot ever sell it because anyone who owns the plane down the road could come back and sue you if something happens? Not sure if that is so true, I feel like you should be able to set the sell transaction up to take liability of your back.

Tough decisions to make! I guess now I have to decide if I want to wait for one to come up for sale, and jump on it. Or just tell the lady no ring until I finish the kitfox :D haha. Maybe then she will come help me a little with it.

Thanks Aviator79 for your input.

[efwd]

If you were retired, I would say under two years is very doable. I am working on my SS7 regularly and Im approaching my two year anniversary next week. I too am balancing a relationship, raising two teenagers and working very irregular shifts. I anticipate another 4-6 months just because I am not really engaged right now since the Electrical stuff is the last big aspect to do. Still need to install the turtle deck, flapperons and their rigging as well as the rudder cable rigging. I used Oratex too.

[Far_Fox]

I have heard great things about oratex. I was just checking out the website today. Looks like a slight time saver. Also I was looking at a company that makes custom already build avionic dashboards with a computer module you mount and plug. Then its a matter of just the engine sensor wiring. I guess it saves wiring time as well. Perhaps if I go this route, plus quick build wings, oratex that may save me a few months. Thanks efwd.

[aviator79]

Two years is reasonable, but certainly better than average. Especially if you don't yet have kids, and if you will enjoy doing it for its own sake, certainly achievable. You'll need to do something pretty much every day for two years.

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.

If you do decide to buy one, line up everything you need in advance. Make sure the funds you intend to use are liquid, know who will do your prepurchase inspection, how much insurance will cost, how you're going to retrieve it, etc before you even start looking. When you see the perfect plane, you will need to literally be on the phone the moment you see the posting, or it will be someone else's.

[aviator79]

I have heard great things about oratex. I was just checking out the website today. Looks like a slight time saver. Also I was looking at a company that makes custom already build avionic dashboards with a computer module you mount and plug. Then its a matter of just the engine sensor wiring. I guess it saves wiring time as well. Perhaps if I go this route, plus quick build wings, oratex that may save me a few months. Thanks efwd.

I'm buying a Dynon/AFS Quick Panel. I can let you know how it goes. It should be a substantial time savings. It's not the cheapest route, but if you want to install the items that are in a Quick Panel, I figure it's about a 10-15% premium over the cost of building a similar panel yourself.

Oratex is also pricey. I'm doing Poly Fiber, and it is a lot of work. Oratex would probably shave 100+ hours from the build. Like many things, you can certainly buy down the amount of time required, at least to a point.

[Far_Fox]

Which of those would you say may be the biggest time savor? Quick wing build+panel, or Quick wing build + Oratex?

[jiott]

My SS7 without quick-built wings and no pre-fab parts took me 2.5 years, about 2400 hours, to build. I am slow and careful and retired and it was my first aircraft build.

[Far_Fox]

Thanks Jiott. 2.5 years is really good. Seems like I must look at it from the perspective it will be my hobby, but well worth it when finished.

[aviator79]

Which of those would you say may be the biggest time savor? Quick wing build+panel, or Quick wing build + Oratex?

I don't have enough information to answer that with any kind of accuracy. If you were going to pick one or the other Quick Panel or Oratex, I'd say pick the one that involves doing work you would enjoy the least. What turns you off more, lots of fumes, ironing, and spraying, or trying to sort out electrical gremlins?

I will say Oratex comes with more downsides than the Quick Panel. The Quick Panel's only real down side is that it costs more. While aesthetics are subjective, I don't think many people would claim that the finished Oratex product is more attractive than Poly-Fiber. It's slightly translucent. darker colors appear two-tone at the finish tapes where the material doubles up. There is a very limited color selection. The tape edges are "raw" instead of blending in. It hasn't really been around long enough to establish that it will last as long as Poly Fiber. To be fair, there are other upsides than labor as well. It is stronger and lighter. It won't lose it's strength if you get it too hot, you won't stink up your garage with MEK fumes, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is: The Quick Panel is substantively similar to what you'll end up with if you don't get it whereas Oratex and Poly Fiber have a lot of differences beyond just cost and time required.

[Dave S]

Adam,

Each one of us who has built a kitfox has their own story; and, the stories are many and varied. I think it is clear to you from what you have written, that you have a grip on the decision process and will figure out what works for you

In my case, I had flown way too many beat to crap rental planes, because they were the only ones I could afford, with my last four rental experiences before deciding to build all ending with a mechanical. Seen way too many junky electrical systems failing at inopportune times, corrosion donuts pressing up around rivets and on and on - all you have to do is be aware of the ADs for old aluminum airplanes to know you could get into an expensive proposition with those. On the other extreme - half million dollar 4 place new airplanes - what planet does that come from! Not the one I live on.

I believe you are correct that a experimental; home built is the most economical way to get a decent airplane that is affordable.

To build, a person has to decide if they the commodities that it takes.

1) It takes some time

You are 30 years old, you have a lot of time both to build and to fly. I started building 4 years before retirement and had both a family and job to take care of - with that, it took me 3 years and 1,200 hours time on task to get it done; and, the EAA tech counselors as well as the DAR (a very picky one at that) were very happy with the results.

2) It takes some money

But a whole heckuva lot less than the alternatives especially considering a person will end up with a new plane.

3) It takes some abilities

You are already an accomplished pilot so know what you are getting into. If you have done Ag applicator work - pretty sure you know all about tools and using them. I see you are a quality control person, which sounds like a technical deal. If you have mechanical abilities - that's a good builder start point.

4) Motivation

I am convinced that the difference between getting it done and not is most often a function of a person's motivation and priorities. I have a pal who has been "building" a kitplane for 22 years. My call is his priorities and motivation are not in line with the project - other things are more important for him. Certainly people have other issues in their lives that make it impossible to get it done; but, IMHO the biggest factor is motivation and priorities, hands down.

There are things a person can do to keep it frugal. I did not get any of the quick build items; but, from what I have seen with other Kitfox builders - the wing quickbuild option saves a tremendous amount of time if a person has the cash to go for it. Choice of engine, systems panel, accessories do affect the final cost a lot.

OK - on annual condition inspection - this is a big saving you get if you are the builder. Other than the fact that the Kitfox has been a very trouble free machine, I have never spent as much as $100 on a condition inspection and my condition inspections tend to very thorough. Oil and filter take half of a $100 bill; and, I have to admit, sheepishly, that replacing a nav light lens for $28 had to do with me, not the aorplane. Best of all, when doing your own condition inspection, you know the condition of the plane; and, you can do it to the highest standards.

Good luck in your endeavors:)

Oh - and there is nothing annoying about your questions - well thought out!

[Esser]

Adam, welcome!

You’ve had some good information so far so I’ll just add a couple of my thoughts:

I received me kit just before my 25th birthday. Luckily I had a great job right out of high school that allowed me to do that. I was planning on having a flying plane in two years. The only reason I really mention that is because I’m at year 6 right now and I could be flying in a few weeks if I put my nose to it but I’m waiting for warm weather.

Should you expect your plane to take 6 years like me? No. I had three major job changes in a three year period, I moved across the country, and my last job required me to basically go back to school making no money for the last 20 months. I’m just finishing up that training and am finally going to get a real paycheque again this month. There were whole periods of a year where I didn’t touch the plane.

Why am I telling you all this? Basically I’m trying to let you know that good intentions can fall to the way side but if everything in your life can stay stable and you can get a good ten hours a week on the plane, you’ll have a great sense of accomplishment in 2 years with your flying plane. I also recommend trying to do something small on it every day.

Quick build wing is a no brainer. It saves over 400 hours of build time and last time I checked costs $4k. I’m assuming you make more than $10 an hour so right there, that is money well spent. Oratex will save you a big head ache in time and equipment when it comes time to paint but it does have extra cost. Covering was the part of the project I hated the most so I would opted to save as much time as I could in that area. That’s just my personal thoughts on that though.

Although it was super daunting, the electrical was one of my favourite parts in the end. I really don’t feel an expensive pre fab panel will save you that much time compared to the cost. I don’t know that for sure but that’s my gut feeling.


Good luck!

[HighWing]

The fact that you couldn't sell it is laughably ridiculous. Pick up any issue of Trade-a-Plane and look at how many Van's planes are for sale. Homebuilts are bought and sold all the time, and if you had a Kitfox to sell today, it would probably be sold tomorrow. It is true that there is no bulletproof way to insulate yourself from post-sale liability, as if someone sued you, it would ultimately be up to a court to decide. However, the practical reality is that this doesn't happen. EAA has not heard a single reported instance of an amateur builder successfully being sued.



Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

[Cherrybark]

Where you build the plane can make a big difference both in the calendar time required and the probability of completion. I'm fortunate to be building in an air conditioned & heated, attached garage so it is a comfortable, convenient environment year round. Being able to walk through a door and be in the middle the project is very nice. If it were a 30 minute drive to an airport hanger, motivation would start to slip.

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

[Esser]

This coming July will be the end of the second year. Will probably take 2 1/2 years total. At first, I kept close track of hours. Now I relax and enjoy the work of building.

Two years already Carl?!? Time flies!

[kitfox2009]

Hi Far Fox
Seeing as we are telling stories, here`s an abbreviated version of mine. I got me PPL in Watson Lake Yukon in 1962 when I was 22 years and single. Started on my Commercial the next year but got married shortly after and helped my wife raise 2 kids. Spent a number of years in the northern mining industry. Did not fly much for next 50 years!!
My wife then reminded me that if I was ever going to "fly again" time was running out.

After doing something similar to what you are up, to I decided it would very unlikely that I would get much flying in if I was to build from scratch or complete someone else`s project, even though I really wanted to BUILD.

Anyway I found a beautifully built Vixen with a 912UL (thought I wanted a conventional gear 100 HP) that had just over 100 hours and very reasonably priced. There was no way I could have built the quality for that price and it was ready to fly!!

I now have close to 800 hours on it, never added oil between changes, average about 15 liters at 100MPH, fly over the Rockies and out to Vancouver Island a few times each year. Even flew to the Yukon a couple of years ago. It was a long 1 day trip each way because of incoming weather. A cool 100 plus HP with tail wheel would nice, but, Hey "I am flying". That was much more important to me.
Over the years I have found life is full of compromise. I would never have had the time or usually the money during my younger years.

Also I don`t want to be negative, but I don`t think my Yukon trip would have been much fun with 2 dogs as well as my tent, sleeping bag, survival gear and clothes for a week or so. Pretty tight fit and I use a relief tube. Might have fun fitting one on the dogs, I have enough trouble because "relief and turbulence" seem to go hand in hand.

I really have to admire you "builders" and you partners. You both need DEDICATION and I imagine tolerance at times.
Have fun and welcome to this great bunch of Kitfoxers.
Cheers
Don

[PapuaPilot]

It took me exactly 2 years and 1200-1300 hours to finish my plane, which I bought second hand with about 20% of the work done. I did have to redo some of the work though, including removing corrosion that had occurred over the 14 years since the first owner bought it.

I'm not the fastest, but have been and A&P for 35+ years and had a lot of things available at the hanger where I work (machine shop, powder coat booth, paint booth, tools, etc.). All of these things saved time, plus I didn't have to learn everything for the first time.

As several have mentioned the best way to complete it is to do something every day, even if it is just researching, reading, surfing for info, etc. The hours I mentioned for building were only for doing the construction, not the research and reading.

Before you start you need to decide if you have the time (10-20 hrs/week for 2-5 years), money ($60-80k), tenacity, tools (more $), location (maybe doing some reno) and the willingness to learn lots of new things (maybe some seminars, joining EAA and going to Oshkosh . . . more time & $). You shouldn't give up everything in life to build a plane, but I decided I could give up a lot of TV, computer time, other hobbies, etc. to get it done ASAP. During the build I was really motived to get the other "must do" and "honey do" things done so I could maximize my evenings and weekends. It really has a lot to do with motivation and use of your time. Like others have said having the place where you can just go out and work on it makes a huge difference. I did most of it in our garage. I was also able to go to work early or stay late to take advantage of the hanger & equipment available.

Even as an A&P I decided to keep away from certified aircraft due to the aging aircraft issues, costs of parts, potential for ADs, etc. I have been working with certified planes my whole career, so I have a pretty good idea of the costs and problems that could happen. As an A&P-IA I didn't have to worry about the cost for inspections and repairs, but it still seemed too expensive to get a 30 to 70 year old plane when I could build a brand new zero time Kitfox for the same price or less then a certified plane.

Even better yet my new Kitfox is far better equipped than any used plane I might have chosen. Avionics for experimental planes cost far less than it would for a certified plane. I believe it would have cost 2-3x more to install the same type equipment in a certified plane.

FYI its been a couple of years since I finished my Kitfox and I picked up a used Wag-Aero Sport Trainer (Cub) to rebuild. I really enjoyed the whole process and am going to do this with a bunch of guys at my EAA chapter. But, I am leaving plenty of time to fly my Kitfox too. :D

[Far_Fox]

Wow, Thank you everyone so far who has shared a story. This has already been the biggest help in the decision making process.

I remember sitting in my Daytona Beach, FL apartment the day before my 18th birthday. I had no bed, no furniture and a pack of Ramon noodles in the microwave. It was the first week I arrived, and I thought to myself "wow I am going to become a pilot here, how cool is this". Little did I know how the world worked, and how hard it was to be that age and make any kind of money besides minimum wage. Paying for a phone bill and an apartment working two jobs (Bubba Gump Shrimp Company, and Abercrombie and Fitch) was next to impossible. That year I learned a lot about how important saving money was, how hard it is to earn it, and how easy it is to spend it on Bills. I met some amazing friends from Norway, Barbados, Germany and Sweden. After a year and just short of my private license, I decided the school was just sucking money out of my aviation loan account rather then actually trying to get me done quickly and for the least amount of money. I was tired of barely making rent, working two jobs and eating Ramon noodles. That is when I heard about this flight school in Bainbridge, GA called Ag-Flight. It had free housing, and they did not charge you per hour for the plane. It was one fixed amount, and you could fly as much as you want. To me this was real flying, no auto pilot, just stick n tail planes. It was also very southern and rural which I enjoyed. Each morning I would wake up, fly over lake Seminole to check out the gators, touch my wheels on the water, fly the river back, do touch and goes, short field landings, run one wheel down the runway and just simply had fun. It was a different way to spend 3 years of my life at that age when most of my friends were in college. I did not have a lot of friends, could not really relate to many others my age but the small young aviation community of people I met, I still talk to now. I have traveled to Norway, Sweden, Germany and many other places hanging out with the guys I learned to fly with. Even now, each summer I travel over seas to spend time with them. Only one of those friends still actually is flying today. I would like to try and bring back a fresh vibe to the aviation community, showing others they can build a new plane, with modern avionics for cheaper then you think. I want to film and promote Back-country flying adventures and explore new areas that most people don't get to. This all takes a steady job, and that is why I have been focused on career and college since then to set me up for something better in the future. I have worked in quality for 8 years now, working my way up to lead IATF 16949 auditor and Quality Engineer for small company while going to school for Chemical engineering.


Now its about the right time I think. I will start my LLC here in the next couple months and my first contract Job is suppose to start in July. This will allow me to have a flexible schedule, choose days to work etc. I think this will allow me some decent time to work on the plane each afternoon as well as weekends. The girl friend might get frustrated but if we can survive through this experience then perhaps shes marriage material right?


The down side is, the airport down the street is more of an executive airport and it is not really small plane friendly (from what I have heard). So the best place and home of our EAA chapter is a 30 minute drive. I do not have the garage space right now to work on a plane, and would have to rent a hanger for at least a year. Next year my girlfriend and I will be moving into a bigger place with a workshop. Once this happens it will makes things easier.

I have decided if it takes me 3 years, that is not so bad. I would rather have a new kit, then pick up the left overs of someone else (just me). I really wish someone would video document the build processes of a kitfox, I have not found anything besides a couple of time lapses on youtube. I will enjoy the build, take my time and not stress about build time (deep breaths).

I will list my house in the next week or two, once that sells I will pay off that aviation loan from 12 years ago (yay), and another student loan. I wont have much left but my monthly bills will now be reduced by thousands. Yes, those damn student loan payments. This will be the time slot between getting married and having kids where I feel it is right to start a build.

I wont be able to drop $20k on the first kit right away so I am hoping the aviation loan company can work something decent out for me with good credit. If I can get payments down to around 400$ a month or so then I will go ahead and drop in my order. If the payments are more like $600 that's not practical yet...then I will have to wait till next year to just pay cash. I will keep everyone posted, if I can make this happen I will start a vlog of the build.

I enjoy reading your stories, and thank you for sharing them with the new guy!

[aviator79]

At the risk of turning this thread into a bunch of stories about how we all came to be where we are, I'll share my story, as it parallels yours, at least to a point.

I started flying when I was 16. The Civil Air Patrol gave me a scholarship to get me through my first solo flight. After that, I took a job mopping hangar floors, scrubbing oily bellies, and pumping gas to fund my flight training. The place I worked had a couple super cubs, and the first thing I did after getting my Private cert was to get a tailwheel endorsement in those cubs (N57528 and N4101E, my first true loves in aviation.) There was a rich and vibrant homebuilt and aerobatics community at KCHD, and I dreamed of building a plane some day. When I graduated High School, I spent a semester at Embry-Riddle in Prescott, AZ. Unfortunately, tragedy in my family left me unable to afford Embry-Riddle, so I went back to Chandler, got my job at the airport back, and started school at Arizona State while working on my additional ratings. I earned my CFI and started working as an instructor while I finished my degree. I was so poor, but dang those were fun times. I graduated in May 2001, and in August 2001, at age 22, got hired with American Eagle. It turns out that August of 2001 was a really bad time to try to start an airline career...

So, I did some instructing again, but the industry was in pretty bad shape. I also had a brief glimpse into the life of an airline pilot, and decided that maybe it wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. So I went back to school, got a whole pile of degrees while working various jobs and internships, getting married and sprouting a couple kids. Then, I finally got my first "real" job here in Los Alamos, NM just about 5 years ago. During those 5 years, I helped get a flying club started up here, and finally, at age 39, find myself in a position where I can afford the expenditure of both time and money to build a Kitfox.

It was not something I rushed into. It took a whole lot of planning on how it would fit into my every aspect of my life. It has to fit in my garage, but also into my finances, and into my relationships with my wife and my kids.

I do think that in terms of timing, getting an airplane built before you have kids will make managing your time a little easier, and you'll have an brand new airplane to fly for most of your life. Getting and early start is great. If you're moving in with your girlfriend, it's serious enough that you should not be too flippant about how this affects her and your relationship with her. You should make sure that building an airplane is something she is fully on board with, and that she understands the time and money that you intend to spend on it.

Also, even though it sounds like you are eager, it also sounds like one year from now, many unknown variables in your life will become known. You'll know where you stand with your student loans, your house will be sold, and you'll actually have a workable space in which to build. You'll never get that hangar rent back, and your progress will likely be slow if you have a 30 minute drive each way to get to your project. On the one hand, if you wait until the "perfect" time to start, you'll be outside the fence looking and dreaming forever. On the other hand, one year, in the grand scheme, is a trivially short amount of time to spend tying up loose ends and planning for a large expenditure of time and money.

Just my $0.02, and I'm a long way off from being able to claim that I have any special knowledge about how to successfully complete a build.

[Far_Fox]

Wow, so similar to my journey. Funny how things work out, Aviator79!

I wish we had some of your weather in Michigan. You will have many more beautiful days for flying when yours is complete. I for some reason cannot get the map forums to load (think its my internet blocker in my office) but would like to see if anyone else is from Michigan on here.

Thanks for sharing man-

[Ramos]

I hate to even mention this as I admire your dreams and aspirations. What happens if you and your girlfriend split the sheets a year from now? Would you still be able to make ends meet?

Not suggesting that you let a fear of 'what if' run your life. Just hoping that a parting of the ways would not be a deal killer for you.

[aviator79]

Brian,
First a question then a couple of stories:

The question - How do you define "successfully"?

Story 1 - I am a retired dentist, I was "unsuccessfully" - as I presume the word is used, sued twice in 40 years. Both times, I was exonerated. However, thankfully, I had malpractice insurance that covered all legal expenses.

Story 2 - A good friend and nearby Model V builder once developed a residential air park with 5 acre parcels surrounding an improved air strip. One of the persons who purchased a parcel and flew there had a wife who was into horses. It didn't take long for her to start making noise about the aircraft noise that disturbed her horses. She made demands that limits on flying hours or certain noise restrictions be instituted. These were rejected which prompted a law suit. As Leo told me the story, he had few financial resources at this time to defend himself against the lawsuit so he "Walked away".

I am not trying to be argumentative, but would seriously like a definition of the word "successful" as used in these very frequent commentaries. For me, at least, it would be much more informative, if some data was available regarding the number of lawsuits that have been "unsuccessfully" filed and the typical cost of "successfully" defending them. I write this because I am getting along in years with some fairly common physical issues that might require me to focus my energies on something else in the not too distant future and I think of the issue a lot. In other words, would the $35,000 my Model IV is likely worth on today's market be worth the risk of possibly losing a significant portion of that or possibly more in "successfully" defending a lawsuit.

This is a very good point Lowell, and EAA's defintion of "unsuccessful" may include those settled out of court. And it could definitely ruin someone to defend himself legally, even if the legal outcome were in his favor. I have not heard of, nor can I find, any anecdotes of this happening, much less an aggregated list that I would call data.

The poster was told he could not sell his airplane, and all evidence is to the contrary. Amateur-built aircraft are sold routinely. The practical reality is that if you aren't insured against such a claim, you are *probably* a small legal target. But as you point out, it's always worth recognizing that there is nothing you can do to completely absolve yourself of liability if you sell someone something with which he can kill or maim himself. Caveat Venditor

[fathom]

I'll jump in on this since I am in the same boat as the original poster. I'm 26, just received my private pilot license in June of '17 and have been dying to own/build a plane for quite awhile. Though the Kitfox wasn't something that immediately jumped out at me, one came available locally and after some thought and a ton of research, it was apparent that it was a deal that couldn't be passed up and this plane would be the IDEAL aircraft to own/build at this stage in my life.

At this point, I purchased a Model IV kit in virtually an unstarted state back in Nov '17, a week before my 26th birthday. I'm engaged and getting married in May '18. To top it all off, I'm an active duty member of the U.S. Coast Guard and we will be moving in April '18. To make matters worse, I will be attending Naval Flight Training to become a Coast Guard aviator. So to say that I've thrown myself into a hurricane of life changing events would be quite an understatement.

The BIGGEST thing I used to measure the risk associated with building an aircraft in a turbulent point of life is/was support from my fiancée. When my CFI met her, he IMMEDIATELY started pulling her into our "airplane-world" and was able to "sell" flying to her as a fun activity that was meant to be enjoyed in GROUPs. We both attended Osh '17 and LOVED it and she got extremely excited about the thought of building after attending some workshops. She didn't have much interest in aviation until we met but that has very much changed. I may say "I" a lot when referring to this build, but in reality it should be "we." If your girlfriend shows even the tiniest bit of interest in aviation, get her onboard and get her excited-Oshkosh is a PERFECT chance for that-and turn it into a group project and learn together rather than a single man's game. My fiancée plans to start Sport Pilot training after our wedding and get some confidence in an aircraft so that it is something that she continues to enjoy and be excited about rather than an activity that her new husband does behind a closed garage door.

As for the build, I can't tell you much about the process yet. I've spent about 60hrs just cleaning/inventorying/identifying what's missing. I’ve purchased a new build manual from Kitfox and ordered all new AN hardware that has been sitting on the plane for the past 20years. We will start full speed ahead after our wedding with a goal to have her flying by my 30th birthday. We plan to blog our build really as a means to share it with those who have been with us from the start, but also as a means to document and learn (and hopefully help someone else).

TL;DR-Get your woman involved and make it a team goal, not an individual goal. A group of likeminded individuals who share a common goal is a lot more productive/innovative than just a group of individuals.

[Far_Fox]

I hate to even mention this as I admire your dreams and aspirations. What happens if you and your girlfriend split the sheets a year from now? Would you still be able to make ends meet?

Yes, I would just move into the hanger! Haha. No I am joking, yes I have a back up plan for that though...

Plan A: Get another house with 2 car garage.
Plan B: Purchase some land big enough to land a plane and build a modern hangerloft. It will become the new tiny house trend but for pilots. little house, nice hanger all in one. Wake up, fly, be free, love life.

:) If we split all would be good, then I could actually let the dogs sleep in the bed again as well. Man, maybe I have some thinking to do here, Ramos! :D

[Ramos]

Yes, I would just move into the hanger! Haha. No I am joking, yes I have a back up plan for that though...

Plan A: Get another house with 2 car garage.
Plan B: Purchase some land big enough to land a plane and build a modern hangerloft. It will become the new tiny house trend but for pilots. little house, nice hanger all in one. Wake up, fly, be free, love life.

:) If we split all would be good, then I could actually let the dogs sleep in the bed again as well. Man, maybe I have some thinking to do here, Ramos! :D


Sounds to me like you have your house in order and your head in a good place! Best of luck in all things, in the air and on the ground.

[Far_Fox]

Those are some really good points Fathom, I am hoping to get her to Osh this year but she has already said no three times. I know once she experiences it she will love it...at least I hope. Good luck with yours, please message me if you post videos I will follow-

[efwd]

LOL! your last sentence. startin with "If we split". I like you already. Welcome to the site!

[GuppyWN]

I turn 50 this year and can tell you there is never the right time. Just frickin’ go for it.

The one thing I’ll add is I wish you didn’t have to go into debt on a kit. Living life by the payment is the biggest regret of my earlier years. Once I figured that out I finally felt I was living life instead of getting through life.

[aviator79]

Hey Far Fox,

I'm actually replying to your question about workshop size from Cherrybark's thread here to avoid hijacking his build thread.

"Smallest but comfortable" is tough because "comfort" is pretty subjective. I'm doing it in a 10'x20' space and perhaps because I don't know any better, it doesn't even feel all that cramped. However, I have a small workshop (about 7'x15') attached to that space, I have a 3' deep "closet" that fills the 20' length of the space, my turtledeck is in a shed in my back yard, my windshield/door plastics are in my hangar, and I'm using a spare room in the house to hang parts from the ceiling and walls. If you don't have anywhere else to put stuff, 10'x20' would be extremely challenging. 20'x20' would be cozy, and 20'x30' would start to feel luxurious.

[Far_Fox]

Okay, thanks for replying on here. I am getting use to the way threads work. Thanks for the info that gives me a great idea of what I need.

[Cherrybark]

I'll repeat my reply over here so shop sizes accumulate.

I'm building in 2/3's of a three car garage, effectively 22 x 23. With some workbenches against the wall and a work table on rollers, it's a fairly comfortable space. There are times when the wife's car gets parked in the drive for a day or two - rigging the wings for instance. Don't skimp on lighting.

[Far_Fox]

Okay, listing my house next week. Fingers crossed! Next year the lady and I will look for a place with at least a 20X24 workshop. Seems like that could be a solid working space. 20X20 at the lower end. Thanks for all your help.

Now I have to decide if I want to put in the order when the house sells and have to drive 30 mins to work on it at the hanger for a year then move it to the our new place....or save up more cash and order it a few months before we are ready to get a house and just start it in the workshop.

Still scares me looking at the photos of people building, looks like alien language to me, or when I read peoples questions about this and that, which I have no idea what they are even asking. I assume this is normal because I have never been around anyone who has built a plane before, but still a financial investment in something that looks over my head.

What got you started on your first builds?

[Esser]

Nothing really makes sense until you get your hands on it. The odd time it still won’t but that’s why we have this forum!

I started building because I was sick of paying $200 an hour for a poor performing aircraft that I couldn’t take on a whim or over night and I have to do a cross wind component even if the wind was 5kts.

After the sale of a Luscombe fell through, I went to Oshkosh talked to some manufacturers. Kitfox was one of the only ones that gave me (24 years old at the time) and the rest is history. I ordered my kit three months later.

[aviator79]

It's just something I've always wanted to do. I've spent years putting the pieces in place to make it happen: Acquiring a hangar, saving enough money to finish the project with zero debt, visiting with manufacturers at Fly-Ins, building weighted-average spreadsheets to compare different designs, flying a club plane to nail down the mission so that I can feed good data into those spreadsheets, etc. The last piece fell into place when John helped sell my wife completely on the idea at Oshkosh. Two months later I was visiting the factory, and three months after that I started building.

If I'm honest, I would advise waiting until you get the workshop. That hangar will cost you more than a few dollars in rent, and will be sub-optimal for a guy trying to work the build around a full time job. And that monthly rent payment won't help you get rid of those student loans. I think a year is a trivially short amount of time to spend planning, fixing some variables, getting some Kitfox stick time, learning on this forum, studying the manual, etc. so that when you do take delivery, you really hit the ground running.

[efwd]

I agree with Brian. That's sound advice.
The manual is available to read on the Kitfox website. Read to your hearts content. The manual is so clear that you will realize that there is nothing difficult or that can't be managed.
Eddie