Hello from TN

[BBoss]

Good morning TeamKitfox from Northern Middle TN. Been lurking a short while and interested in the S7 Speedster. Hoping to check it out at Sun N Fun and Oshkosh this year if it's there. I'm currently in a partnership in a C172, but looking to build in the not to distant future.

My burning question is, can anyone tell me what the width of the fuselage at the seatback is? I'm fairly broad shouldered. I sat in the Rans S-20 last year at Oshkosh, and it fit me pretty well. I know the Speedster and the S-20 are within a couple of inches to each other, but the specs for the Speedster lists 43" and the Rans is 46". Both airplanes have doors that bow out a bit for more room, but I'm trying to figure out how much on the Kitfox. Any insights? Thanks for a great forum!


V/r,

Brad

[bholland]

Before deciding on what to build one of the planes I flew was the S20. I personally could not tell the difference in cabin width between the S20 and a Kitfox with bubble doors. You are definitely doing the right thing before buying by asking questions on planes your interested in. I would also suggest you fly them as well. I know Rans will take you up in anything they have at a show, I think for $50.00. You can contact John or reach out to others here for a ride in an S7. I contacted John, and Brandon with Stick and Rudder was in my area training a customer who had just taken delivery of a S7 and I was able to take a ride with him. I am 5'7" and around 160lbs so it is a little less of a concern for me. As far as the overall experience between the two, I guess by me being registered on this forum you know what my choice was.;).

Brett
mykitlog.com/bholland

[BBoss]

Brett,

Thanks for the reply and info. I hear what you are saying! I'm registered on both forums, so I am getting no work done, between reading up on both airplanes. Can you tell me what drove you to the Kitfox over the Rans? I've never built anything before, but I am an A&P and have been working on helicopters for the past 20 years.

[aviator79]

The cabin width numbers on their own are of limited value. The shape of the cabin and the shape of the occupants play a big role. The only way to know how it fits is to sit in both.

I didn't fly the RANS, but looked at them at shows. The Kitfox to me felt like a more refined product. I made a weighted average spreadsheet for comparing various aircraft, and two of the factors in that sheet are the availability of a builder community and factory support. Our EAA tech counselor claims that 75% of aircraft kits don't get completed by the first owner (full disclosure: I don't know where that comes from, but this guy usually has good data.) A great design is worthless if you never get it flying because you get stuck or so frustrated it becomes a chore to work on. So I believe that available builder support and quality documentation should be weighted pretty strongly in this decision. Kitfox scores very strongly here.

[BBoss]

Good points. I look forward to checking Kitfox out at Sun N Fun. I'll definitely see if I can find one to sit in.

I definitely like the performance numbers I see on the website, and from what I have read so far here, they are pretty accurate.

I have also heard that statement also about a high percentage not being completed by their first owner. I'm hoping to not be one of those statistics. I've been following the homebuilt movement since the late 80's, but never got my toe in the water. Time to change that!

V/r,

Brad

[ken nougaret]

Brad,
I will be st Sun N Fun most of the week. You are welcome to sit in my plane. It does not have the bubble doors but you can get a feel for it with the standard doors.
Ken

[BBoss]

Brad,
I will be st Sun N Fun most of the week. You are welcome to sit in my plane. It does not have the bubble doors but you can get a feel for it with the standard doors.
Ken

Ken,

That would be awesome. I'm bringing my wife so we can try on some airplanes and she can get a feel for them as well. Thanks!


V/r,

Brad

[jiott]

One big difference between Kitfox and the others is the flaperons. I know there are lots of personal opinions and pros & cons on this, but here is what attracted me to flaperons and continues to please me as I now am almost to 700 hours on my Kitfox SS7:

Their being located below the wing in relatively undisturbed air they never seem to stall since the main wing will stall first. When the main wing stalls, the nose will drop (gently) and sometimes one wing will start to drop if you are not coordinated. When this happens you still have control with the ailerons (flaperons) and can easily raise that wing with just stick side motion. You don't have to use rudder as we all were taught, unless of course you want to. What this does for me is gives me a lot more confidence and stable feel to come in on a very slow short field landing approach.

Full span flaperons also give instant fingertip roll control.

Of course I also think the flaperons give the Kitfox a cool and unique appearance.

The only downside to flaperons I have found is not as good steep descent rate as regular barn door flaps, but that one deficiency is easily overcome with the Kitfox ability to execute a very aggressive forward slip under full stable control with or without flap(erons) deployed.

[aviator79]

The only downside to flaperons I have found is not as good steep descent rate as regular barn door flaps, but that one deficiency is easily overcome with the Kitfox ability to execute a very aggressive forward slip under full stable control with or without flap(erons) deployed.

I'll add a little bit. The Flaperons simplify the build vs having twice as many surfaces to assemble and install. The Kitfox system is really simple. I'm sure this is at least part of the motivation for flaperons in the RV-12.

On the downside, adverse yaw is more pronounced when using the flaps. I consider myself pretty good about keeping my feet awake, but there was some learning curve keeping it coordinated with the flaps in. I found that leading my turns with a pretty good amount of rudder kept the ball closer to center.

[jiott]

Just a comment about the RV-12 and some others that use flaperons, but they do not hang below the wing in cleaner air. I have not flown an RV-12, but I would very much doubt that they maintain good aileron roll control deep into the stall as does the Kitfox.

[bholland]

Brad,
My only experience with building was in the 80's I bought a Sonerai II kit. It was somewhat difficult trying to figure everything out with no internet, no builders close by, paying long distance charges when calling the factory etc. This time I was determined to make it easier on myself so I did talk to other builders of each plane I was interested in, and actually visited Tom Waid (tropicaltuba.com) to look at his build and ask questions. With the Kitfox being around since the early 80's it just seemed like there were a lot more builders around and they have all been eager to help if needed. Also all the bugs have been worked out where a newer design will likely have some areas that need improvements. I also was impressed with the factory support. For example just yesterday I emailed Debra McBean with a question about static ports. In less than 30 minutes she emailed back with an answer. The Kitfox also seemed to be the most versatile plane out there with the best performance figures as a bonus. As far as flying I have had the opportunity to fly the tail dragger and tri gear with the Rotax 912 and Jaburu 3300 and they just are very stable, forgiving, easy and fun to fly. For me the flaperons are no issue they are just a different feel. As others have said they make it where the plane is almost impossible to stall. I hope this helps and good luck with which ever plane you choose.

Brett
mykitlog.com/bholland

[Flybyjim]

Hello Brad,

You are getting great info here from builders who have jumped into the water with both feet. I also went through your situation several years ago. Both the Rans S7 and Kitfox Super 7 are good planes. I agree that the refinements are nicer in the Fox, hardware and fit and finish also. Saying this i must tell you I did but a Rans S7 kit mainly because I fly a lot by myself and I liked the tandem seating for visual. It is a nice plane, however, every year at Oshkosh I kept looking at the Kitfox and finally got some flight time with John and I was sold within 15min. The kitfox is a bit quicker in handling but not quirky, solid in all flight aspects. The ride was noticeably smoother than my Rans on the windy day we were flying. Just ask the Kitfox to do something and it responds. The creature comfort of the Fox I found to be nicer than the Rans. It was a cool day and the heater worked very very well, the doors on the Fox fit much nicer as they are inset into the frame.

So, yes I bought a kit and have been having a blast building. Kitfox instructions, build manual and support has been outstanding, I can not say that about others.

I did have an issue last year with a Young Eagle student and being behind me in the Rans S7 I had a struggle on my hands for awhile, if she was beside me I could have handled the situation much much better.

Both planes are the better choices on the market, find your mission, sit in them, fly them. I also agree this site is way,way,way better than the Yahoo Rans forum.
I will be at Sun/Fun also, Wednesday-Friday.

[jrthomas]

The only downside to flaperons I have found is not as good steep descent rate as regular barn door flaps, but that one deficiency is easily overcome with the Kitfox ability to execute a very aggressive forward slip under full stable control with or without flap(erons) deployed.[/QUOTE]

I learned a technique from a CFI with a Husky and it works very well with my Model 4 which has the same wing as the models 5 thru 7. On descent I try to get my speed under 60 mph and keep back pressure to keep my speed constant. I can look out the sides and my wingtips should be about level with the horizon. I can maintain and adjust my speed and my rate of decent with more or less elevator. Dropping my nose will increase my speed and increase glide distance or I can add throttle if needed. I try to get down to around 50 mph on short final. I always trim (power trim on elevator) full nose up but I still have to keep a good bit of back pressure. I commonly see my rate of descent at around 500 feet per minute with this technique. I personally like this style better than slipping which can always be thrown in if there's the need. I've found this works best for me to control my speed and rate of descent. James Thomas

[BBoss]

Good info here guys. Really appreciate your responses. I am looking forward to taking a more in-depth look at the Kitfox at SNF. Please keep it coming if there's more to add.


V/r,

Brad