Re-registering kitfox possible?

[Bluebird19kf]

So, I am in the middle of rebuilding a model 3 that I bought in airworthy condition. I am redoing most of the plane including engine,gear,instruments,covering, etc, etc. Is it possible to build as if i am the original builder and apply for new n number/ registration. Where would I look for information to do this?

[Av8r3400]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is somewhere between probably not and maybe. You will have to convince the FISDO or DAR that you built the airplane from "parts".

I went through this same decision when rebuilding the Mangy Fox. I chose to just embrace the idea that I am not the manufacturer. There's a couple of reasons not to.

1 - I don't mind the idea of another person looking at my plane once a year to "check my work" so to speak.

2 - I only had a 5 hour phase one flight testing period (because I changed the prop!) rather than the 40 hours needed if I were to have become the manufacturer.

3 - I paid state sales tax when I bought the airplane. If I were to have "built from parts" I would have to calculate the cost of these parts, less taxed receipts, and pay sales tax again to register the plane.

[beeryboats]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is somewhere between probably not and maybe. You will have to convince the FISDO or DAR that you built the airplane from "parts".

I went through this same decision when rebuilding the Mangy Fox. I chose to just embrace the idea that I am not the manufacturer. There's a couple of reasons not to.

1 - I don't mind the idea of another person looking at my plane once a year to "check my work" so to speak.

2 - I only had a 5 hour phase one flight testing period (because I changed the prop!) rather than the 40 hours needed if I were to have become the manufacturer.

3 - I paid state sales tax when I bought the airplane. If I were to have "built from parts" I would have to calculate the cost of these parts, less taxed receipts, and pay sales tax again to register the plane.

I still can't understand the 5 hours of flight testing for a prop change. Same diameter, same pitch, but different manufacturer and you have to waste 5 hours boring holes in the sky...

[Bluebird19kf]

So I say I paid 1000 for some wings and a fuselage and take a bunch of pictures of the rest of the build. Where will I run into isssues? All of those points are valid but I think it would be cool to strip it completely and rebuild with me as the builder. I'm not saying that's the way to go just trying to weigh the options. Thanks av8r3400

[Av8r3400]

So I say I paid 1000 for some wings and a fuselage and take a bunch of pictures of the rest of the build. Where will I run into isssues? All of those points are valid but I think it would be cool to strip it completely and rebuild with me as the builder. I'm not saying that's the way to go just trying to weigh the options. Thanks av8r3400

Again it will depend on the DAR/FISDO rep that inspects your project. Lately around here, they are very interested in seeing not just a builders log, but photos of you, the builder, working on the plane in various stages, showing that you truly built 51% of the plane. Recovering a set of purchased wings and fuselage won't cut it for making that magic 51% of the plane if the inspector is "by the book".

[Bluebird19kf]

Gotcha. Would you recommend calling my local fisdo before hand with that question? How do I figure out who that is? Sorry but I am totally new to how this experimental buisiness works and I appreciate the guidance.

[Bluebird19kf]

Also, I truly don't feel like I will be cheating the 51% rule. I'm only exploring this because I feel like I might as well have just built the plane from scratch.

[neville]

The plane has a serial number. When a person requests a N number a bill of sale, with serial number, must be submitted. So the aircraft is already in the FAA system. A plane can only be built once. Of course you can rebuild the aircraft but you cannot do the condition inspection needed in order to meet the DAR inspection requirements. Only the original builder ,if that person has been issued an experimental repairman certificate, or an FAA licensed mechanic of a certain level of license can do that type inspection.

[av8rps]

You do not have to prove you built 51% of the plane. Otherwise no one could ever sell an unfinished project because you could never get paperwork from the FAA to fly it, which we know isn't true. 10 different people could buy the plane and work on the plane, all contributing a different percentage of the build, and then you could be the 11th guy to buy it, and then do the last 3% to complete it. That would all be legitimate. When you call the DAR or FAA to inspect the aircraft their role is to verify it is built to meet safety and compliance regs, and if it does they will then issue an airworthiness certificate for the aircraft.

The only questionable part of all that is whether or not they will provide you with the repairman certificate. If no one else has ever had the repairman certificate, AND you have assigned yourself as the manufacturer in all the paperwork, unless they feel you know nothing about the aircraft you have completed there should be no reason you should be denied a repairman certificate.

Of course, there can be inspectors that might decide to make up their own rules, or maybe just misinterpret the regs, but if that happens then you need to appeal to higher authorities as the inspectors are inspectors, not legislators. The regs are the regs.

The 51% rule simply states that the aircraft has to be built 51% by the amateur builder (or builders). In other words, you cannot purchase a kitplane from a manufacturer that is more than 49% complete when it arrives at your door. That's why kitplane manufacturers get their company and kit models approved on the FAA's list of 49% kits so people can buy a kitplane knowing it meets the FAA requirements TO BE AMATEUR BUILT.

There always seems to be a lot of confusion about this subject. But it really is pretty simple. However recertifying an existing, pre-registered aircraft adds some potential issues to all this. I personally would use the existing airwothiness certificate and befriend an A&P to help do your annuals. I think it would be simpler overall.

[Av8r3400]

By a friend who just had his plane inspected a couple of weeks ago, he needed to show in his logs and photos that he built 51% of the plane, in order to get the repairmans certificate.

These were the words of the FISDO inspector. Yes, that's his interpretation of the rules, but that is the bar we must uphold for him to pass the paperwork.

[neville]

About the repairman certificate: AC 65-23A ( change 1) para 4(a), applicant must attest to building more that 50% of the aircraft, which must be notarized.
Para 4 (e), Present satisfactory evidence such as construction log book, pictures, drawings. Para 7. certificate should be surrendered whenever A/C is destroyed or sold, however in the latter situation the repairman may elect to retain the certificate in order to perform condition inspections for the new owner.

AC 20-27G appendix 8 is used as a work sheet to calculate the 51% and should be presented to the DAR along with other evidence of being the builder.

[av8rps]

A friend of mine scratch built an award winning plane (from plans) but was denied a repairman certificate because he didn't have a photograph builders log. So I know that can happen.

Ironically, it was the 3rd plane he built, and he had no issue getting repairman certificates for the first two. But the inspector on the 3rd one had decided because he only had a hand written building log that he wasn't eligible for a repairman certificate. But my friend challenged the FAA, using the regulation itself as his defense, and he was given his repairman certificate.

Now I don't think it should be a big deal to do a photo log if you are building an airplane. But the reg does not require that. So until it does, I think allowing inspectors to make up their own rules will just lead to a loss of more freedoms and more rules that will ultimately limit more of what we can do with our experimental aircraft.

Sorry about standing on my soapbox, but I feel strongly that if you don't exercise your rights you are likely to lose them. It's still America last I knew.

[neville]

Your soapbox stand is words well said.

[Delta Whisky]

There's plenty of great experiences and knowledge contained in these responses. I'll add my two bits this way:

Lots of folks think that there is one FAA for the good ol US of A. In my experience that is definitely NOT true. There are almost as many FAAs as there are ACO, MIDO and FSDO offices. They have a habit of interpreting the regs differently. So, unless you have experience with a particular person or office, why risk asking a question that might be answered in a way that you don't like?

I would not start by calling your local FSDO office. Instead, I recommend that you start by talking to the locals that have recently acquired their AW certs and get a feeling for the attitudes of the FAA rep or DAR they worked with. Once you find one with a reputation for interpreting the regs in a manner that at least somewhat matches your plans, then talk to him/her and obtain an input as to how you can "in the interest of the administrator" do what you would like to do. Good luck, Darrel

[HighWing]

These last few responses are spot in in my experience and opinion. We had at our local FSDO a guy that loved experimental aviation. He was everyone's favorite and observing what he looked for when he examined my airplane made the FAA seem like a practical operation. Then the story a close friend and neighbor tells is worlds different than so many we hear today - especially with the DAR program. As he has told the story many times, he arranged for a man from his local FSDO - near Half Moon Bay - to come by for a pre-finish inspection. While he was there, he asked questions regarding planned build techniques and components needed to complete the project. After the many answers, the FAA guy said he would sign it off as it stood with the understanding all would be completed as planned. The Airworthiness Certificate was signed and the Repairman's Certificate was approved - airplane currently 2500 hours. I am not suggesting this is the best way, but it serves to illustrate the variety of personalities we come across in all aspects of aviation. This last sentence reminded me of the time my wife and I were entering the gate at Livermore, Alameda County, CA where I was finishing my first Model IV when a young FAA - newbie, I presume - stopped us demanding identification to verify our legitimacy being on airport property.

[Kitfox Guy]

I agree, no two FSDO are the same. I recommend you first check in with the local EAA to get a good read on how your local FSDO operates. They can put you in touch with someone who has gone through the AW certification process with your local FSDO.

[dcsfoto]

I am a DAR in Arkansas ( for 30 years) feel free to call if you want.

I would not call the FSDO .

David Kelm
501 804 9285

Kitfox 7SS 912iS
Garmin G3X Touch

[mr bill]

I used the FSDO. They came out in less than a week, went thru the paperwork and the inspection in about five hours. One minor error in the paperwork and a suggestion to improve the fuel tank vent tubes. One visit is all it took, best of all, they are free. This guy had been a C-17 mechanic in the Air Force and an airline mechanic and IA after that (many years of actual experience), before joining the FAA.

[Av8r3400]

Milwaukee FISDO now takes months to schedule a visit to northern Wisconsin.

[Kitfox Guy]

Milwaukee FISDO now takes months to schedule a visit to northern Wisconsin.

Some of the FSDO offices have some really weird practices. An A&P buddy of mine has to drive by the Riverside, CA FSDO when returning home from Aircraft Spruce so he figured he would stop by the FSDO to drop off some paperwork. Unfortunately, the person in the FSDO refused to unlock the door and insisted he slide the paperwork under the door, which he did. This was during normal business hours! I guess they take their appointments only policy literally.

[efwd]

LOL. I also went by Riverside FSDO. Its true.
Terrorists are visiting FSDO’s I guess. The sign on the wall sights security reasons for requiring an appointment.

[HighWing]

The Sacramento FSDO is the same. The last time I was there, I was greeted by a guy behind bulletproof glass asking his questions through a microphone.

[Av8r3400]

:mad::mad: What the h@ll is wrong with these bloated, overpaid bureaucrats? :mad::mad:

[efwd]

It would be interesting to go through some legal research and see how much the FSDO's have gone through. Must have been terrible. ;)

[kitfox2009]

Good morning folks
Need help in finding a DAR located in Washington who would complete a import inspection on a 2008 Kitfox Super Sport that was built in Canada but is being purchased by an American pilot for use in the US.
The ac has just over 200 hours and all Transport Canada inspections and documentation is in place.
Any suggestions. The Spokane area would be ideal.
I am still helping the widow with selling this super Super Sport. The purchaser having difficulty finding a DAR.
All suggestions welcome.
Cheers
Don

[kitfox2009]

Administrator
Kindly move this to a more appropriate thread.
Thanks
Don

[avidflyer]

Did you try looking on the FAA.gov website for a list of DARs and their location. I'm sure it's there some where. I've been on this PC way to long this morning already, or I would do some digging for you. Maybe look on the EAA's site as well. JImChuk

[Delta Whisky]

If I correctly attached a DAR file, take a look at it and see if it helps.

[kitfox2009]

HI Delta Whisky
Thanks for the link. Seems like most of them are located in the Seattle area . I will contact a few to see if they would be willing to conduct a import inspection. Thanks again.
Great site, this KF forum.
Cheers
Don

[kitfox2009]

HI Delta Whisky
Thanks for the link. Seems like most of them are located in the Seattle area . I will contact a few to see if they would be willing to conduct a import inspection. Thanks again.
Great site, this KF forum.
Cheers
Don

[GuppyWN]

I’ve got a friend in Spokane that’s pretty connected. I’ll report back.

[kitfox2009]

Thanks that would be great!

[GuppyWN]

Ok. My contact knows a DAR but he’s a crop duster and covered up. Have you had any luck?

[dcsfoto]

Google: FAA DAR List there is a DARF and DART list

both cand do E-AB aircraft



David Kelm

[kitfox2009]

Hi guys
I "think" we might be OK. Found a fellow in WA near CubCrafters.
Hope it works.
Thanks guys for your help and suggestions
Cheers
Don