Ordering and Options

[littlecricket]

Santa didn’t come through for me and I was a little too slow on the draw to get Jason’s Dreamster. As they say, you snooze...

Anyway, I’m thinking about starting from scratch and ordering a kit. So, I’m seeking advise on which options to the kit are worth it???

A little about the type of flying I plan to do: I would like some backcountry, but probably not hardcore, more like medium core (if that’s a saying). Probably be using it as to travel all over the western US. So, I need a balance for the mission. Planning tailwheel, and mostly Rotax. Beyond that I’m all ears...

Follow on question: What’s realistic build time with a dedicated 10hours a week?

[littlecricket]

Ps. Any builders/owners near St. George Utah?

[rosslr]

Hi LC - first congratulations on a good choice. Second, there is a recent post that discussed the options as you are considering. My short answer is to order all options!
Build time? ..... that one will yield a lot of answers but it depends on if your 10 hrs is in a block or scattered, how familiar you are with this type of work, what sort of set up you have, how much support you have etc. But I am at the unskilled/inexperienced end of the builder spectrum and put in more than 10hrs/week and it took me 2 years. There will be more opinions!

Good luck and welcome - you wont regret the choice.

cheers

r

[efwd]

Mines in the garage, work on it regularly. Live in Metro LA, CA so everything I need to keep the progress going is right here including Aircraft Spruce. Make many trips to the aircraft section at the Home Depot. March will be two years and I hope this electrical work does not take me 6 months to do. I hope to fly in June or July. The only option I didn't get was the Laker Leading Edge. I have done several items that may have added up to the same time the leading edge would have taken. I also likely saved a good deal of time having used Oratex fabric. I have only had to paint the fiberglass, Struts and panels as well as graphics on the wings and fuse which I am accomplishing now. Hope that helps. If your in a hurry to fly maybe building will be arduous for you. I would love to fly soon but I am enjoying the build such that I go out and just say to myself, I'm building or painting something today, and when its done I am usually pleased with the outcome. Just being patient and enjoying the recreation part of it and one day I will be flying. Not a whole lot of things you do recreationally end up with such a Kick A-- accomplishment.
Eddie

[AirFox]

The best resource next to this forum is the factory support line. You will learn that John and Debra will spend the time to answer your questions. You can trust their answers. Your #1 rule of thumb when considering options is to build light. That being said I did what Ross did and ordered most options. I would say you want to absolutely buy the following options:
Adjustable peddles, bubble doors, tinted doors and windows, black powder coating, wing tips with molded landing lights, Speedster tail kit, false ribs, Laker Leading Edge kit, baggage kit, factory upholstery. Your on the right track going for a Rotax 912. I would also get a constant speed prop if its in you budget. Build at your home if possible for the quickest build. Took me about 1200 hours building in my two car garage. I built it in just over a year. Give plenty of time for ordering FWF, Engine and Prop. I would have been done in less than a year if I would have ordered those options earlier. I would lean toward a glass panel. Have fun building it's a fun process and the manual is easy to follow. It was fun building and even more fun flying!!! I have over 700 hours in the 4 years since building. These are awesome planes!

Scott

[jiott]

I would agree with Scott, and add these options to the list: heavy duty AKB tailwheel, 8.50x6 smooth tundra tires, elevator assist spring, lift strut fairings, parking brake, and I'm sure there are a few others.

[littlecricket]

Great! Thanks so much for the info.

If you go with Oratex, do you get credit for not needing the poly fiber?

Can you choose your powder coating color?

False ribs, order extra for 4 per bay or stay with the standard?

What’s the difference between the 4130 streamline wing lift struts and the regular wing lift strut fairings?

What is the transport kit?

Wing tips, hoerner or standard?

How about tailwheel difference between the ABI-3200 and the T3?

I figure tires I’d go with 27 dessers over the airstreaks for cost and use on pavement. But, that can be decided later. Also, hope I can squeeze for the airmaster... But, again I’m getting ahead of myself...

[AirFox]

All Good Questions. See below for my opinion.


Great! Thanks so much for the info.

If you go with Oratex, do you get credit for not needing the poly fiber? Kitfox is pretty reasonable giving credit changes to the standard kit. I hear on a cub polyfiber is about $6000 and Oratex is about twice the cost. I would seriously look at Oratex. I have heard some have problems with Oratex, but mostly from install errors. Lots of weight savings could be had.

Can you choose your powder coating color? Yes.

False ribs, order extra for 4 per bay or stay with the standard? Standard works fine.

What’s the difference between the 4130 streamline wing lift struts and the regular wing lift strut fairings? I would go with the Streamline!!!!

What is the transport kit? It is the kit used to fold the wings back. It's really nice if you plan on trailering to the airport. I used mine once to transport to the airport after the build.

Wing tips, hoerner or standard? I would get the standard with the landing light cutouts.

How about tailwheel difference between the ABI-3200 and the T3? The ABI-3200 is Alaskaairframes tailwheel and the T3 is the spring replacement. The T3 is a game changer. Takes the impact on the fuselage down to about 1/3 of the standard TW spring!

I figure tires I’d go with 27 dessers over the airstreaks for cost and use on pavement. But, that can be decided later. Also, hope I can squeeze for the airmaster... But, again I’m getting ahead of myself... I would also consider dual puck brakes if your going with 27" tires. You will need to upgrade to larger wheels for the 27" Dessers. Upgrade in the initial order to save yourself some money.

[efwd]

I decided on Oratex after receiving my kit so I paid for the Polyfiber also. I paid in the neighborhood of $7000 for the Oratex. If you choose Oratex don't use foam on the vertical and horizontal stabilizers tips. The top of my vertical stab looks pretty crappy as I was unable to get wrinkles out with appropriate heat as the foam began to melt. Use Balsa Wood. Live and learn.
Eddie

[AirFox]

I decided on Oratex after receiving my kit so I paid for the Polyfiber also. I paid in the neighborhood of $7000 for the Oratex. If you choose Oratex don't use foam on the vertical and horizontal stabilizers tips. The top of my vertical stab looks pretty crappy as I was unable to get wrinkles out with appropriate heat as the foam began to melt. Use Balsa Wood. Live and learn.
Eddie

Good Tip Eddie! I noticed one builder didn't use anything on the ends of the Horizontal, vertical and elevator. It's a pretty simple solution and looks pretty good. Avoid all that work and just cover without foam or balsa would be a good solution. Keep it simple!

[jiott]

To further clarify, the regular lift strut fairings are a split snap-on plastic fairing that fits over the standard round steel lift struts. They are fairly cheap and do a marvelous job of reducing drag; however, they are somewhat heavy-about 12 lbs I believe. The 4130 streamline lift struts are 4130 steel shaped as an airfoil. I'm sure they would do just as much good as the plastic fairings for reducing drag, and they would be simple and quick to install and I assume save some weight. The downside is they are very expensive.

[jrevens]

To further clarify, the regular lift strut fairings are a split snap-on plastic fairing that fits over the standard round steel lift struts. They are fairly cheap and do a marvelous job of reducing drag; however, they are somewhat heavy-about 12 lbs I believe. The 4130 streamline lift struts are 4130 steel shaped as an airfoil. I'm sure they would do just as much good as the plastic fairings for reducing drag, and they would be simple and quick to install and I assume save some weight. The downside is they are very expensive.

I don't know... The steel lift struts probably weigh considerably more than the round tubing. It depends on the gauge of material used. If you had aluminum ones like RANS uses they might be lighter.

[jiott]

Weight wise I was comparing the round steel struts + plastic fairings to the streamlined steel struts. As you say, it depends on the gauge of steel used, but I would think that the streamlined struts could be a lighter gauge because the cross-section is bigger. I guess at this point we don't really know, until Kitfox gives some specs on them; maybe they have and someone knows a weight comparison?

[jrevens]

Weight wise I was comparing the round steel struts + plastic fairings to the streamlined steel struts. As you say, it depends on the gauge of steel used, but I would think that the streamlined struts could be a lighter gauge because the cross-section is bigger. I guess at this point we don't really know, until Kitfox gives some specs on them; maybe they have and someone knows a weight comparison?

Sure, I know you were, Jim. I was basing my comment on looking at the steel ones that Kitfox had on their airplane at OSH last year. I’m sure that John McBean could provide the specs and weight comparison now if he wanted to, but it seems to me that they probably had at least as heavy a wall thickness as the standard strut tubing. I suspect there is no weight savings... I could be wrong of course.

[Esser]

For the price of those stream lined metal ones, you could probably get carbon fibre fairings and be lighter....

[AirFox]

Two big advantages of the Streamlined Struts are saving all the labor of installing the plastic streamline kit and being able to inspect the struts under the plastic. Again I would definitely get the streamlined struts if I had known what I know now.

[bholland]

Eddie,
I saw your post about the foam melting on your tips when you heated your Oratex. Sad to say but I made my tips the same way and I am also planning on using Oratex. I hate redoing things especially when it is one of the few things that came out good with my lack of skills. Has anyone else had the same problem whether covering with Oratex or fabric? If anyone has any ideas beside replacing them with balsa wood I'm all ears. Thanks for posting what happened I'm sure you saved me from having a bad day:)

Brett
mykitlog.com/bholland

[jiott]

If I were you, I would try coating the foam tips with a pretty heavy layer of Hysol (I believe you are supposed to do some coating anyway). A test on a leftover piece would be easy to do, and try using the required Oratex heat on it. I'm betting it would work fine, as long as you don't dwell a long time on it, allowing the heat to soak way in.

[Esser]

I used balsa and superfil. They are very hard so they can withstand bumps and much easier to work with than hydro for sanding. I can’t find a finished product pic of the top of the rudder

[efwd]

I did use Hysol as was recommended. You would need about an eighth inch layer in my opinion. As I was trying to get the Oratex to wrap smooth, which requires about 400F the hysol and foam began to develop depressions. Just redo the foam and don't fret it. Balsa or nothing at all is what I would do if I did it again.
Eddie

[jrevens]

FWIW, I made my tips out of epoxy & lots of micro-baboons. OK, balloons... I couldn't resist. :p

[Av8r3400]

:rolleyes:

[colospace]

I started with the foam covered with Hysol per the manual when I was doing my horizontals. It was such a pain that I switched to balsa when I got to the verticals. But I did not have a problem with either when applying the Oratex.

[efwd]

Funny thing is, I only had trouble with the top of the rudder actually. It was a more significant piece of foam. The fabric was having to bend around the foam vs steel as was the case on the horizontal.

[bholland]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts and ideas. I ordered an infrared thermometer and I will try heating mine to see what happens before covering.

Brett
mykitlog.com/bholland

[Flienlow]

So I am at 71k without paint, Avionics, or accessories.

Does this look about accurate?

AKF SS Fuselage $13,700.00
Wings $5,895.00
Landing gear $4,895.00
Quick Build Wings $1,475.00
Nose Gear $1,145.00
Speedster tail $275.00
Bottom False Rib $150.00
Adjustable Rudder Peddles $295.00
Dual Brake Kit $425.00
prefab bracket $695.00
Tinted screen $695.00
bubble doors $690.00 830 tinted
cargo bay kit $525.00
cabin heat $455.00
upgrade wing tip $299.00
transport kit $455.00
Synergy Suede $1,495.00
Confor Foam $150.00
Aero LED nav $995.00
75" Ground adjust prop $2,600
Aero LED landing $349.00
912 IS Firewall forward $5,395.00
912 IS Engine $21,236.00
POH $14.00
Covering manual $39.95
Aircraft LOG $7.50
Aircraft Engine LOG $7.50
Propeller LOG $7.50
Cabin Cover $495.00
Cover Kit $1,122.88
data plate $8.00
passenger warning Placard $6.50
LOGO $17.50
Experimental decal $19.00
Earth X battery $379.00
912 Oil Cooler $315.00
45 degree oil cooler fitting $31.00
oil pressure $89.99
VDO Sender $58.00
Oil Access Door $56.00
Fuel Return $155.00
radiator Scoop kit $189.00
912 radiator $345.00
Throttle cable $200.00
carb heat $135.00
Fuel Valve $75.50
Hysol $145.00
Hysol tube $18.20
RTV Silicone $18.74
loctite $18.50
loc-tite $23.95
cabin vent $185.00
cabin vent $185.00
Butt rib close out $55.00
parking brake $275.00
Tool kit $400.00
doors gas strut $60.00
lake leading edge $995.00
$70,442.21

[N981MS]

I suspect it will be significantly less than that. Things could have changed since I ordered my kit 17 years ago but I believe many of the items on your list will be included in the airframe and firewall forward kits.

Those must be some mighty nice vents. I used Vans plastic vents with NACA scoops which are currently $76 for a set of 2. Not nearly as nice as some of the aluminum eyeball vents and they do not seal as well but they do work well.

[Esser]

Yeah I couldn’t bring myself to pay for those vents. Or $1k for the AEroLED nav lights when I can get avio (not aveo) nav and strobes for $300

[efwd]

That's a pretty exhaustive list and as Maxwell stated, many of those items you have given prices for are just part of the FWF and Airframe kit. Having said that, it doesn't appear you have $$ concerns since you leave nothing out of the list. Looks like you want everything I have. but now you need to add Avionics and electrical component. I have a fairly loaded panel but I don't have a CS prop. But, what I do have that is equivalent in cost is the Oratex. I am easily spending 85K. Not including misc items like consumables and the like. If your like me, ( which it seems you are, based on your whish list ) you will be ordering custom wiring harness' also. I'm not ashamed to post my cost since it helps others get a real idea of expenses. Best money I have ever spent and as I have said, no buyers remorse whatsoever. Everything new and high end so It obviously can be done cheaper. This is a 20 year (or more) purchase, don't fret it if the money is available.
Eddie

[Flienlow]

[QUOTE=Esser;69989]Yeah I couldn’t bring myself to pay for those vents. Or $1k for the AEroLED nav lights when I can get avio (not aveo) nav and strobes for $300[/QUOT
Words that greet my eyes with comfort! I simply do not know Aircraft Economics. I am try trying to read all I can though. On one had I wouldn't want to trip over a nickel and omit something of value due to being cheap and regret it later. But on the other, I wouldn't want to make a Cessna 172 the cost of a Caravan either. That and I am having a bit of trouble understanding what all is included with in this :
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/index.php/s7-ss

My assumption is that there is nothing feature wise included, 24k gets you a skeleton.

[Esser]

When I bought my kit, the base was 19,999. I put on about about 7k in options, aerotail, dual brakes, adjustable pedals, quick build wings, LLE, etc. Things that if I wanted them, they needed to be installed right away. Everything else I pretty much left out. Believe me, that initial kit will keep you going for quite a while. I went the used engine, prop, and avionics route. There are things you will have to spend money on and things you can find deals on. It’s also a learning curve to learn when you should spend the money because it’s cheaper in the long run. But the good news is if you space out a lot of the purchases, you can get started, get on the forum, and then you will slowly pick up on what others have done. The plane I have today almost ready to fly is a lot different than the plane I had imagined when I first started my kick...and that evolution is a good thing.

[littlecricket]

Yeah, it has definitely ballooned since I started looking and pricing all my wants. There are a few things on your list that are not needed like carb heat and others that have less costly options, but I think it’s a realistic pricing maybe even low because there are costs that don’t make the list like 4130 streamline struts and composite leading edge. When I started the research I was thinking 60-70k, now thinking just under 100k. I guess I better get a demo flight to help know it’ll be worth it.

[Esser]

Oh, and just to give you an idea, I’ll be all in for about $70,000 CDN. I bought the kit when our dollar was more valuable than yours.

I have pretty much every option you would want. Used Rotax 914, Airmaster prop, 8 year old GRT EFIS and EIS(Also used. The sensors came with which was big costs savings), and aftermarket EFI

Now granted, I got a hell of a deal on the engine, prop, and avionics but deals are out there. Rotech in Vernon has factory rebuilt 914s for about 10,000 less than brand new and in CDN dollars.

If I bought everything new I’d be closer to 95,000 CDN

[littlecricket]

Josh, where did you find the used engine and avionics? Oh, I see you just answered the engine question. Thanks.

Also, what are people’s opinions about tinted doors and windshield?

[Esser]

Yeah, it has definitely ballooned since I started looking and pricing all my wants. There are a few things on your list that are not needed like carb heat and others that have less costly options, but I think it’s a realistic pricing maybe even low because there are costs that don’t make the list like 4130 streamline struts and composite leading edge. When I started the research I was thinking 60-70k, now thinking just under 100k. I guess I better get a demo flight to help know it’ll be worth it.

I would never pay for those 4130 streamline struts. You could make custom carbon fibre strut fairings for half the cost and probably be lighter. He also did have the composite leading edge on that list.

[Esser]

Josh, where did you find the used engine and avionics?

Also, what are people’s opinions about tinted doors and windshield?

I have the tint. It’s very light but considering you are sitting in a big greenhouse, I wouldn’t not want it.

I found the engine and avionics believe it or not on Kijiji. A guy an hour north of me cracked up his pelican and sold. The project. I pretty much used it all for parts. KMach on this forum has a used 912ULS for sale. Not sure what he wants for it but used engines are out there. He’s in Saskatchewan too so maybe he’s selling in CDN

[littlecricket]

Yeah, I missed the LLE. Thanks for all the info learning more all the time.

[Flienlow]

. When I started the research I was thinking 60-70k, now thinking just under 100k. I guess I better get a demo flight to help know it’ll be worth it.

This is where I am at too. I know that I don't want some "Contraption" that I have fashioned out of used motorcycles parts and Home Depot fodder. I Really like this airplane for 65K. At 100k there are a lot of other things that come into play (at least me) and that "might as well clause' is a wicked mistress i'm sure.
The Viking engine will shave a good 5k off, and perhaps keeping the plane a basic Day VFR flyer will make the best use of money. The modern day I PAD "seems" to be a really power tool for the cockpit, and perhaps that may be a great addition to a simplified panel, but I have yet to use one.

[Esser]

Believe me 100k would be something with every bell and whistle you can imagine. 75k is probably the completed average. You can wait for a model 5-7 to come up used and modify it the way you have it.

[Danzer1]

I know that I don't want some "Contraption" that I have fashioned out of used motorcycles parts and Home Depot fodder.


The Viking engine will shave a good 5k off,

Seems like a contradiction of terms and ideas. The Viking starts as used Honda engine with unknown and untraceable past, built by JE who has quite a "following".

Have fun, YMMV, Greg

[littlecricket]

Josh, did you get your airmaster and prop used, too? What prop are you going with?

[Esser]

Josh, did you get your airmaster and prop used, too? What prop are you going with?

Yep. Everything came together as a package. It came with the warp blades.

[colospace]

I would call Debra and talk to her a bit. She can readily clarify what comes in the current kits.

[Flienlow]

Seems like a contradiction of terms and ideas. The Viking starts as used Honda engine with unknown and untraceable past, built by JE who has quite a "following".

Have fun, YMMV, Greg

Well that is a question that I don't have the answer for. I am not certain where he sources his engines, and any further pursuit would require that.

ALSO... I haven't bought anything and discussion is free.

A Couple of points though:

Cost- For what its worth this endeavor is far from free and everyone has their own comfort level.

Honda- I have a lot of faith in Honda engines. They can squeeze 240 reliable HP out of 1L and hammer the living crap out them with a lean mapping on a race track for 60 miles and they simply don't come apart.

Failure-I think that most power plants if not all have experienced an in flight failure rare or not. I am not sure I want to trust my life with a 50+ year old crankshaft from a Certified A/C Engine or Corvair conversion either. (yet) I guess what I am saying is that there is risk in everything.

Viking-I know a person that owns a Viking and have see it run in person. There were no shenanigans with the sale. The person ordered a $14,000 engine, received it, received support for it, and it makes a sewing machine jealous because it runs so smooth. The workmanship on it looks top notch. Will it come apart in flight? - I have no idea.
This is also a pretty small arena and bad new always travels fast. I feel that he probably realizes what his short comings were. I also feel that he and a lot of others have moved past that in the Spirit of powering Aircraft. - But this is merely worthless speculation on my part.

In conclusion, for sure the 912 is gold standard, but I feel it is also wise to at least consider others.

[N981MS]

I love the experimental side of experimental aviation and I applaud those who go down that road.

Know this with regard to auto engines vs. airplane in airplanes: There is increased risk. There is almost always more work. You might even spend more on the conversion. (many have)

I read on a forum something I believe to be true: If you want to tinker, an auto conversion is good. If you want to fly, get an airplane engine.

I hope the Viking proves the best engine ever and we are all flying one some day. If that will be the case somebody has to go for it. There some people unhappy with the previous Eggenfelner iterations, though. Do a lot of research on Jans so that you can be familiar with his business practices.

http://www.meyette.us/engine.htm (http://www.meyette.us/engine.htm)
http://www.meyette.us/RV10crash.htm (http://www.meyette.us/RV10crash.htm) This is a good read on almost everything not to do. Mostly not Eggenfelner related.

[Danzer1]

Well that is a question that I don't have the answer for. I am not certain where he sources his engines, and any further pursuit would require that.

ALSO... I haven't bought anything and discussion is free.

A Couple of points though:

Cost- For what its worth this endeavor is far from free and everyone has their own comfort level.

Honda- I have a lot of faith in Honda engines. They can squeeze 240 reliable HP out of 1L and hammer the living crap out them with a lean mapping on a race track for 60 miles and they simply don't come apart.

Failure-I think that most power plants if not all have experienced an in flight failure rare or not. I am not sure I want to trust my life with a 50+ year old crankshaft from a Certified A/C Engine or Corvair conversion either. (yet) I guess what I am saying is that there is risk in everything.

Viking-I know a person that owns a Viking and have see it run in person. There were no shenanigans with the sale. The person ordered a $14,000 engine, received it, received support for it, and it makes a sewing machine jealous because it runs so smooth. The workmanship on it looks top notch. Will it come apart in flight? - I have no idea.
This is also a pretty small arena and bad new always travels fast. I feel that he probably realizes what his short comings were. I also feel that he and a lot of others have moved past that in the Spirit of powering Aircraft. - But this is merely worthless speculation on my part.

In conclusion, for sure the 912 is gold standard, but I feel it is also wise to at least consider others.

Hi Justin,

I do agreee with most of what you wrote - this is experimental and it is certainly worth exploring options. I have no doubt Honda engines are great auto engines. I am suggesting a thorough investigation and that you be comfortable with your choices.

I did extensive due diligence into this "manufacturer" in 2014. I had email interaction with the owner that was less than positive.

There is no doubt these are used Honda engines though.

Back then I was told everything went through a thorugh 100 point inspection.

Back then his website showed a HP curve straight out of the Honda website.

Back then his website showed several conficting and apples to oranges comparisons between aircraft performance.

Via email I asked for a copy of the 100 point inspection list and a copy of THEIR dyno printout - I was told and I quote:

"We have nothing to "prove
We don't want to give you any "evidence"

I was told that on 3 different occasions.

Also asked if I could have a tour of his entire facility and was told:

"You have no right to any company details."

And: "You would never be a potential buyer."

And subsequently I was removed and banned from his forum and all of my questions werre removed as well.

I have no skin in this game, nor do I have an axe to grind, but just want you to know if you read what is written on his site or his forums - it is controlled and edited to his satisfaction. Anything that he doesn't want to answer is either ignored or removed and/or banned - so it is pretty one sided.

He has since revised most of his website to say very little. Still won't provide any of HIS dyno numbers, inspection procedures, etc.

I know of one recent customer who went through a warped head (from the "factory") - engine replaced and subsequently 3 linkage failures between the flywheel and gearbox- the last one totalling the aircraft. You can read that here: https://sites.google.com/site/vikingaircraftengineissues/

How does a warped head get past a 100 point inspection?

Since 2014, he is now using the Honda used factory engines with the factory catalytic converter in place. His website states 100LL can be used, on his forum he states: "There are no negative effects of using 100LL with a direct injected engine. You can use it any time you would like."

Well maybe? I don't care to find out. We have all pretty much seen what 100LL can do to an engine that is water cooled running at lower temperatures than air cooled - valves, seats, pistons, heads, etc. How do they hold up? What about the potential for reduced airflow and efficiency through the cat over time? I don't know and I suspect he doesn't either because the customer is not only the test pilot, the customers are the R&D department.

To sum up, in one of his final comments to me, he stated "We just like to fly, build hours and have fun." And: "550 hours on the latest test aircraft, and building." (in October of 2014) And: "We just fly a lot to see what could brake."

If that works for you - great, didn't work for me.

Have fun with your build and choices.
YMMV, Greg