Hiring A builder?

[tracstarr]

I'm just wondering if there are any resources or persons that could lead me to finding someone with prior experience building a kitfox - that's interested in building mine.

Realistically I just don't have time. I know you can get the SLSA factory built, but looking for alternatives as well.

Just looking at options.

[Flybyjim]

Where are you located

[PapuaPilot]

Honestly you would be better off buying a used Kitfox when one comes available.

It takes 1200-2000 hours to build one. If you hire someone to build your plane it looks like the total cost would be northward of $100,000; you might as well buy a factory built SLSA.

Most of us who have building experience wouldn't have the time to build one, unless they are retired. The other problem is we are too busy flying the one we built. ;)

[avidflyer]

You most likely run into legal issues as well. Amatuer built doesn't mean professional built. And when you pay them, aren't they a professional? JImChuk

[David47]

You most likely run into legal issues as well. Amatuer built doesn't mean professional built. And when you pay them, aren't they a professional? JImChuk

I agree. In Australia we have the 51% rule, which I think was started in the USA, meaning the owner must have contributed 51% of the time to the build for it to be classified as Amateur Built. If you get someone else to build it, they are the builder and therefore attract the liability that goes with it. As Phil suggested, maybe buy a factory built because the cost will be about the same.

That's my 2 cents worth ...

[PapuaPilot]

If you don't build it, get a used one or buy an SLSA you won't be able to do the condition inspections, which will require you to find and A&P or A&P-IA that is willing to do the inspection. This is an additional expense in the ownership of the plane.

[aviator79]

There is no ambiguity about whether or not you can pay someone to assemble your kit for you and then register it as amateur-built. You can't.

An amateur-built airplane is one: "the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by person(s) who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."

the inclusion of the word "solely" means any compensation to a third-party builder excludes the airplane from the definition of amateur-built. But hiring a builder is exactly what you do when you buy the SLSA.

[Ramos]

Are there any KF dealers that offer a build assist type program? I am assuming that would leave the buyer as the 'builder of record'???

[Esser]

In Canada where the poster is from you can buy a used plane and still do all the maintenance yourself and you can hire a builder to work with

[tracstarr]

Thanks for the comments.

In Canada we don't have the 51% rule. I can register as amateur built as long as I am in control of the build process and make the decisions - I can have someone else build it.

If the perfect used one comes up (in Canada) then yes, I'd consider it. I don't want an SLSA one as the difficulties to register in Canada are big, and will have to have all checks and maintenance done by an AP. (as far as i currently understand).

There's always someone who has time and knowledge - it's just a matter of finding them.

Will it cost me - sure. But so does buying factory built. I'm not against paying. Time is money, and I have very little time to do the build fully myself. I would love to do it - don't get me wrong.

I've just fallen in love with this plane. It offers me everything I want.

[av8rps]

(These comments pertain to EAB's in the U.S. Canada actually has easier rules on this)

No, you can't legally hire someone to build an amateur built plane. BUT, if you are the person that "finishes" building the plane (even the last 2% of the project), after an inspection by a DAR you will receive an airworthiness certificate for your new plane (assuming it is safe and built well enough to pass the inspection). And if you can prove you know something about the build and how to maintain it, if you apply for it you most likely can get a repairman certificate for it as well.

This has been done countless times with experimental amateur built aircraft. Many, many of the original builders give up on airplane projects they started. Sometimes there are numerous builders before the last guy finishes it and registers it. Think about it, if that weren't true no one would ever buy a "project" as it would only be good for parts, right?

I have literally seen a guy bolt a prop on, connect the battery, then call the inspector, and not only get the AW certificate, but also the repairman. Everything else was done by others before him on the plane. Best part, he did that exact thing on 3 planes I knew of (he had a wealthy older friend that loved to build planes but wasn't much of a flier, and didn't want any builders liability, so they both had a pretty good arrangement).

The 51% rule applies to how much of the plane is fabricated by the builder, or builders. That doesn't mean one person has to build 51%, as many seem to think.

Sometimes I swear we are our own worse enemy. People work out deals all the time to have more experienced builders help them put together an airplane. And I sure don't have an issue with that. That is between the owner and the other guy as far as I'm concerned. And frankly, those planes are many times some of the nicest built, safest homebuilts out there.

My final thoughts, consider finding multiple people to help you. One guy to assemble airframe, another to cover and paint, another to do engine and panel, and another to do interior, etc, etc. Not everyone has time to build a whole plane start to finish, but if you "general" it out like people do building a house, you might even find it to be a fun project to oversee.

Ok, squeezing into my flame-proof suit now.... (haven't had it on in a while ;) )

[tracstarr]

thanks @av8rps. Some very valid points about people buying partial builds etc.

The idea of finding several people is also good as not only are some people often better at different areas, it just adds more eyes on the project and potential issues. (at least I would hope so).

I hope I can find a few in my area.

[av8rps]

There are a lot of great aircraft mechanics that sometimes are looking fo part time, fill in work if you can't locate some experienced recreational builders.

[HighWing]

Ok, squeezing into my flame-proof suit now.... (haven't had it on in a while ;) )

I have helped with two projects. Finishing a series V doing the panel, engine install and wiring - registered by the owner. Helped an owner across the street build a Lancair IV. I being retired did most of the work on the fuselage ,landing gear and wings. Owner did the engine install and panel. Registered in his name.

[av8rps]

And knowing Lowell like we do, I'll bet both planes ended up to be high quality, no compromise builds.

[HighWing]

And knowing Lowell like we do, I'll bet both planes ended up to be high quality, no compromise builds.

Thanks Paul, But truth be told, it can be something like a curse. In dental school we had an instructor Dr. Nguyen T. Nguyen. I think of him a lot and maybe way too much. The only thing I really remember about him is an often-heard phrase in his Vietnamese twang – “Dooit Ower!” One other thing they often say about dentists, that because every single procedure in their work day has a definite beginning and a definite end – the last bit of polish or the very last suture – they rebel when not on the job. They are never ever able to really finish anything. So on and on it goes.

[efwd]

OH I get it now.
your sign off at the bottom also says "just one more thing..."

[av8rps]

I'm still betting the planes turned out great :)

[HighWing]

This thread has brought back some really good memories. One thing in particular might merit mention. When helping with the Lancair, I was lurking on a builders forum similar to ours here as I was looking for tips and hints in the building process. One really striking post was from a guy who, I guess, Liked to research the web. Going to the NTSB Aviation Accident Database and searching for accidents related to the Lancair IV, he found that the airiplane had an "Attrition Rate" of over 20% with the majority involving fatalities. As soon as I read that, I determined that I would not accept the inevitably offered ride until Brad had at least 500 hours. Wisely, Brad hired a pilot from the factory to fly the first five hours and then check him out in the airplane before he continued the Phase 1 testing. And here to the gist of the story. The test / check pilot gave Brad some words to "Live" by. As I recall, it was something like this. "At Cameron Park the pattern altitude is 1000 ft. Yours will be 1500 ft. At mid runway, on downwind, if you are not stabilized at 1500 ft. and at exactly your downwind speed - the number escapes me but short final was flown at 90 kts. - you must do a go-around". This Brad did wherever he was for not quite ten years before selling the airplane which is now in Mississippi. With his discipline in mind, I flew with Brad at about 150 hours with no reservations. This reminds me of Paul's verbally spoken checklist when flying with his Model IV on the amphibious floats. Simple things? Yes, but....

[tracstarr]

I just meet with my local EAA chapter here today. It was great to meet a few members and just talk to some people in person who have built or are building. The will be a great resource I'm sure.

I have a few contacts now that might be able to help me out in this venture. The one thing I'm still missing is a testflight in a fox before making my final decision.

Thanks for the stories and comments.