P mag reviews

[airlina]

As winter is ready to set in here in Western New York ,I am bringing my IO-240 powered Series 5 Outback from the airport back to my home shop to do some major upgrades after 14 years and 800 hours of flying her. One of the maintenance items that I am overdue on, is the slick mag inspection which is recommended at 500 hours. After doing a bit of research I have found this to be an expensive proposition even if the mags are in good shape. As an alternative , I am considering a dual P mag installation to replace the original slicks. I know Phil (Papau pilot) has one of each on his IO-240 and he recommends the P mag. Just like to find out if any of you legacy Lycoming , Continental operators have an opinion on the P mag. I found an article in Kitplanes from Paul Dye who did the changeout on both his RV's with good results, but I like to do my homework before dropping the big bucks (they ain't cheap) Thanks guys, Bruce N199CL

[jrevens]

Hi Bruce,

Here's a little info, for what it's worth -

I replaced the original Bendix mags for P-Mags on my O-320 Lyc. (on Thorp T-18) quite a few years ago. They had some "teething pains" at that time, so I did some more homework, and being the conservative guy I am about such things finally decided I couldn't trust them, and changed them out for new Slicks. There were a few reports of problems resulting in engine damage (proven), and one actual loss of an airplane (never really proven, to my knowledge) because of them . Two of those incidents were suffered by good friends of mine. It's a long story, but the bottom line is that they made design and manufacturing changes that have resulted in what I believe are very reliable units. The ability to have variable timing, a "hotter" spark to use automotive plugs and a larger gap than a magneto is comfortable with, and a self-contained generator that makes them self-powered in the event of aircraft power loss (above something like 800 RPM) are all great attributes. I realized better starting, better fuel economy, a lower smooth idle speed, and a slight increase in power as measured by top speed and RPM when I had the early ones. They are sensitive to heat due to the on-board electronics, so you have to minimize that as much as possible with cooling air blast tubes, etc. There are a lot of them in service now, and with the improvements that have been made over time, I think they would probably be a very good retrofit.

[airlina]

Thanks for the great report John, So far my research has revealed exactly what you talked about with the early issues , then a better product of late. On a side note your plane looks great and is looking like its ready to leave the nest. Great job , hope to see it in person perhaps at OSH. Thanks Bruce N199CL

[PapuaPilot]

I just heard last week from a sales rep that there is new electronic ignition that is coming out for certified engines that could potentially get rid of the existing Slick and Bendix mags. It should be on the market very early in 2018. The price is going to the same or lower than buying new Slick or Bendix mags. It may be less than the cost of a P-Mag. The mags will not require a 500 hour inspection or any other intermediate maintenance and will be able to go the full TBO of an engine. The only moving part is the bearing. They are plug and play; matching to your existing harness and require a one time setup to time them. It sounds like the setup is just like doing the P-Mag (very easy).

One big advantage will be not having to do the 500 hour inspections, you will eliminate the expense of this 2-3x in the TBO of an engine. Like you said the 500 hours inspections can be very expensive, especially if any parts need replacing. I do my own 500 hour inspections, so I may keep my Slick mag, but I may consider buying one of these to go along with my P-Mag.

You might want to wait a couple of months for the introduction of this new mag. The rep said every FBO he has visited wants to buy some of these new mags right now.

[airlina]

I just heard last week from a sales rep that there is new electronic ignition that is coming out for certified engines that could potentially get rid of the existing Slick and Bendix mags. It should be on the market very early in 2018. The price is going to the same or lower than buying new Slick or Bendix mags. It may be less than the cost of a P-Mag. The mags will not require a 500 hour inspection or any other intermediate maintenance and will be able to go the full TBO of an engine. The only moving part is the bearing. They are plug and play; matching to your existing harness and require a one time setup to time them. It sounds like the setup is just like doing the P-Mag (very easy).

One big advantage will be not having to do the 500 hour inspections, you will eliminate the expense of this 2-3x in the TBO of an engine. Like you said the 500 hours inspections can be very expensive, especially if any parts need replacing. I do my own 500 hour inspections, so I may keep my Slick mag, but I may consider buying one of these to go along with my P-Mag.

You might want to wait a couple of months for the introduction of this new mag. The rep said every FBO he has visited wants to buy some of these new mags right now.

Phil , do you happen to know the name of the company that is developing this product? Sounds like it would be worth the wait to see what they are offering. thanks Bruce N199CL

[PapuaPilot]

Sorry, I don't know who the company is. It seems like it is one of the big names, not a startup company. I will let you know when I find out.

[airlina]

Did a little homework after reading your post , Phil and I suspect the company name is Surefly electronic ignitions, which apparently is an offshoot of the company that makes plane power alternators and starters. I'm going to call them tomorrow-they are currently offering a experimental version of their emag as they work on certification. Bruce N199CL

[David47]

May or may not be the same thing, however, I'm installing a Lyc O-233 non certified engine, and it has a Champion CDI system which comprises a controller and two capacitors which replaces the usual mechanical magneto's. The system was designed, I think, by a company by the name of Lasar, for Champion. You may be able to buy it direct from them.

There's also another company selling an "E-mag" which is essentially the same thing and I know that this is a "bolt on and play" system, at least that's how they market it. These might be worth looking at.

I can't attest to the Champion/Lasar system on my engine ..... because I'm not flying yet. However, I do know that there were some initial issues with reliability earlier on which required a replacement unit, however haven't heard anything since.

[airlina]

Thanks for the information David, I will research those as well. Anxious to see how your 233 powered Kitfox performs when you finish. Should be similar to our IO-240 power with a lighter weight. I enjoy following your build , keep plugin and you and Ross will be flying in formation before you know it. Thanks Bruce N199CL

[jrevens]

May or may not be the same thing, however, I'm installing a Lyc O-233 non certified engine, and it has a Champion CDI system which comprises a controller and two capacitors which replaces the usual mechanical magneto's. The system was designed, I think, by a company by the name of Lasar, for Champion. You may be able to buy it direct from them.

There's also another company selling an "E-mag" which is essentially the same thing and I know that this is a "bolt on and play" system, at least that's how they market it. These might be worth looking at.

I can't attest to the Champion/Lasar system on my engine ..... because I'm not flying yet. However, I do know that there were some initial issues with reliability earlier on which required a replacement unit, however haven't heard anything since.

Hi David,
My son-in-law has a Lasar ignition system on his Grumman Cheetah. He had a pretty difficult time getting a part for it a couple of years ago... had a long wait while they made it, if I remember correctly. I remember when the system was first introduced. I think it was in the late 80’s or early 1990’s. They were built by Unison. Since then they have been built and owned by various other companies. Somewhere around 5 or 6 years ago when G.E. owned it, prices went through the roof, and there were some very angry & disappointed owners who needed parts or service. If you had a factory-built airplane they were about the only option for electronic ignition, but the experimental world was breaking all kinds of new ground and there were other, better (in my opinion) and less expensive choices for homebuilts. I’m not sure what the current situation is with Champion and Lasar, but since it’s a Lycoming it makes sense that it would come with a Champion ignition system. I believe that it is a new, better design and not the old Lasar system. I think maybe Champion bought LASAR? It’s hard to keep track of all the changes in ownership

As far as E-MAG goes, they are manufactured by Emagair, who make the “P-MAG” that we have been discussing. The E-MAG is/was the original version that didn’t have the built-in generator to self-power itself. Then they came out with the P-MAG. I guess maybe that is all that they make now, and they’ve gone to calling their units E-MAGS exclusively. I’m not really sure.

[David47]

Thanks for the background info John. Very interesting. I was initially concerned about reliability with these units because I thought they were a relatively new adoption by engine manufacturers. I think your comments about Champion/Lasar CDI units are about right because Ben McGuiness, another KF7S builder installing the injected version of my engine here in Melbourne told me some time back that he had to swap out his CDI unit for a replacement because of performance or reliability issues. But from my reading, it appears that the CDI systems seem to provide more efficient spark energy - at least that's the claim - which can overcome some common starting and rough running problems, i.e. over priming, fouled plugs etc. Almost sounds too good to be true, but i'll know in around 4-5 months - hopefully.

Yes, Bruce, looking forward to sidling up next to Ross's KF in the new year.

[GMKman]

What about electro air (eis) systems?
Seen them on aircraft spruce, reasonably priced for experimental aircraft?

[Agflyboy]

I used http://g3ignition.com/products.html so I wouldn't have to worry about a electrical failure, could use and modify my current mags and could play around with running in E.I. mode or mag mode. Not variable timing curve like some.

[Delta Whisky]

FWIW - I used an Electroair ignition on an RV-6 for 800 hours and it was still running strong when I sold it. The mag went south on me while over the Rockies - the Electroair never missed a beat.

[GuppyWN]

Aircraft Magneto Service in Missoula just did the 500 hour inspection on my Skylane for under $500/each. Runs like a new airplane.

[Agflyboy]

Aircraft Magneto Service in Missoula just did the 500 hour inspection on my Skylane for under $500/each. Runs like a new airplane.

That's the shop I used on mine, they actually bought a G3I system so they could test the mags I sent them for overhaul in both E.I. Mode and Mag mode. FWIW