Model 4 verse the 7 ss

[Bogusflyby]

I was wondering how the model 4 compares to the 7ss. I am new to kitfox and have flown the 7ss with the rotax 912 100hp engine. Wondering what you guys would prefer to buy and also the different flight characteristics.

[Av8r3400]

I have a model IV. (IV-1200 to be exact.) My previous plane was a model IV. (IV-1050) I have over 1000 hours in type. I have flown the models V-VIISS on a couple of occasions, which are all very similar, varying with minor details.


IMO - The V through the current SS are a much more "mature" and "refined" airplane compared to the earlier models. My airplanes, though very well built, do not have the designed in finish of the later model Kits. Things like the way the doors are designed to seal, the way the cowlings are made, the improved panel design all show the improvements made over my plane.

The flying qualities of the newer planes are more stable, in a word, heavier. That's not to say they are boring like a Cessna, S7 Rans or a Crylander, (which I all have flown) far from it. They are still very sporty handling, but heavier than my IV is.

A newer Kitfox is like a modern sports roadster. My IV is like a MG-A. Does that make sense?

[Bogusflyby]

That makes sense thanks!

[HighWing]

I have always thought of the difference sort of like a dirt bike vs. A Honda Gold wing.

[HighWing]

Thinking of my response, I do wish the IV-1200 was still available as a kit. After losing my first IV, it was a long and hard search to find an uncompleted IV to get me going again. Yes, I used to own a dirt bike - Montessa.

[jdmcbean]

I personally would say Dirt Bike vs Dual Sport...

And the IV IS still available.. mostly by special order and mostly being bought by the overseas market due to the lower gross weight requirements.

[Ramos]

I personally would say Dirt Bike vs Dual Sport...

And the IV IS still available.. mostly by special order and mostly being bought by the overseas market due to the lower gross weight requirements.


That sounds better. Dirt bike vs. Gold Wing had me thinking: "Who wants to ride a Gold Wing?" Yawn........ :D

Using the dirt bike/dual sport analogy, is it correct to say that for short hops and pasture strips a Model IV may actually be the better option?

[jiott]

"Dirt bike vs. dual sport" sounds like a good comparison to me. The model IV may have slightly better performance, but I suspect that is only because of the lighter gross weight. However, I have yet to hear of anyone say that the 7SS can't get in and out of anyplace that the model IV can. The model 7SS has more refinement and comfort for longer trips. Other than price and availability (of used or unfinished kits), I would think the newer 7SS is the better choice.

[Guy Buchanan]

Well, speaking as an authority, the IV is certainly a much better looking airplane. And, being lighter, will certainly perform better. And it tends to attract pilots who are better looking and perform better too.

[Ramos]

Well, speaking as an authority, the IV is certainly a much better looking airplane. And, being lighter, will certainly perform better. And it tends to attract pilots who are better looking and perform better too.


Guy, thank you for the info. I honestly had no idea that the IV could potentially enhance pilot performance for such a variety of missions! :D

[Av8r3400]

Well, speaking as an authority, the IV is certainly a much better looking airplane. And, being lighter, will certainly perform better. And it tends to attract pilots who are better looking and perform better too.


Okay. Where's the like button??

So much truth and wisdom in one single posting. There should be a Hall of Fame for such things!

[wannafly]

You Guy Buchanan are a wise man. I too will push the love button.:D

[fastfred]

A better comparison might be an American made bike like the Street glide . The sports car of bikes. I have never been in a 7ss but I can see what you guys are talking about.

[WWhunter]

Street Glide? You gotta be kidding me....a Heritage Springer is pure class!! Only the best looking guys ride the FLSTS! 🤣

[HighWing]

Wow, Guy! I just checked in the mirror and you are right - well, at least half right.

[jrevens]

Yeah, that's actually the reason I am not building a IV - couldn't pass the "looks" requirement. Well, that and I just don't fit in that darn little airplane very well with my beautiful long legs.

[av8rps]

I bought a 4 in my mid life so I could save money on skin cream and a gym membership. Having floats on my 4 I'm still having issues with getting mobbed by attractive young women at the beach...

I thought I finally found a nice little spot I could enjoy my plane without being bothered by attractive young women, but if you look close in this picture you will see a bunch of them coming down my driveway. Dang!

(LOL!!!)

[Esser]

Beautiful spot!

[rainbird]

Must be my old failing eyes but I don’t see those invaders coming down your driveway. Great location though. Looks like an advertisement for the guy who has his priorities RIGHT.

[fastfred]

I know this is a different subject but how do you tie the plane down on the water? Is there a dock there? Would you trust it to leave it while you are gone? Is there a place to learn this information?
I hunted with a guide in the arctic and he would leave his 185 just moored off shore with a line around the propeller shaft . It would bob out there for weeks in some of the most extreme wind and weather I have ever been in.

[av8rps]

I know this is a different subject but how do you tie the plane down on the water? Is there a dock there? Would you trust it to leave it while you are gone? Is there a place to learn this information?
I hunted with a guide in the arctic and he would leave his 185 just moored off shore with a line around the propeller shaft . It would bob out there for weeks in some of the most extreme wind and weather I have ever been in.

I am very fortunate to be on a 7,000 acre lake that is perfect for seaplane flying, and to live on a penninsula that is very sheltered from wind to park my seaplane. Being a penninsula I have two docks to use when desired, but normally tie down the Kitfox in the shallow sand beach on the tip of the peninsula (see pic, but note I typically have ropes on wings too). To avoid concerns about bad weather I watch weather and take the Kitfox back to the hangar when it makes me feel better.

But for the record, I kept my straight float Avid Flyer at home all year round from 1987 until 1998...(see pic) tied down on the point in summer and tied down on the ice (on wheel skis) by my back dock in the winter. I flew an average of 250 hours a year by having my plane always at home, but having the option with amphibs to put the Fox in the hangar is really the best of both worlds. Concerns about storm damage, excessive UV damage to the fabric, bird and bug nests, etc are minimized.

I ran EAA's Seaplane Base for the last 14 years, which provided me with a lot of experience mooring seaplanes, as 90% of the seaplanes attending are put out on moorings. I've seen 70+ mph winds rip through that bay, and yet never saw a seaplane get damaged (but some airplanes tied down at airport did). A good mooring setup will work well to protect a seaplane in most any weather conditions. The concept is simple: Use a large concrete block with a stainless cable lead under the water in which you then attach a nylon prop bridle to so that the plane will weathervane into the wind, and when the wind kicks up waves the harder it blows the more it pulls the nose down, which spills all of the lift off the wing because the wing has negative incidence to the relative wind. So the only thing you really have to worry about is if the plane leaks you could sink. But of course there are ways to safe guard against that too. The easiest way is to park in shallow water, like Eaa's Seaplane Base mooring area has.

[fastfred]

Thank you for the info. That explains how and why the Canadian guide moored it in those high winds.
Where can I get the prop bridle?
I too have the perfect lake a couple miles long but very remote hardly any boat traffic most days. I do not have any sandy place to pull it out though so I might build a ramp to drive it up. I have some work to do to get my sea plane rating so I put it back to wheels and I am looking for skis if you hear of any.
I am having trouble getting a CFI that is current in the Kitfox is my next issue.

[av8rps]

Sounds like you have a great plan to have a seaplane at home. But don't be surprised to learn that you may have to modify your plan a bit until you settle in with what works best.

As you know I'm not opposed to mooring. But even without a sand beach, if I had a shoreline that would allow a wood seaplane ramp that would be my preference in keeping my plane at the house. Just make sure you have nice sturdy tiedowns to keep it safely on the ramp. I use 4 ft long screw in steel anchors.

And a really cool thing about owning a folding wing plane is that you can fold the wings back and tie it down snug and it's not going to go anywhere. And if the winds were really, really a concern (as like a hurricane?), as an additional safety measure just fill the floats with water and your little Kitfox will now weigh as much as that small car in your driveway. With the Kitfox folded up, weighted down, and tied down, the car may blow away first :D

The wheel penetration skis Avid made work well for a Kitfox if you can find a set. There were some recently in forum classifieds. You can also make them a straight ski if you want, if you get really deep snow they will work better that way.

Hopefully you'll find the right instructor soon. Enjoy the training, you'll look back at it for most likely the rest of your life as a highlight. I do.

[fastfred]

Thanks for the encouragement it seems like it is taking for ever to get it out of the shop. Every time we turn around we decide to upgrade something. Now the weather has gone to heck here.

I do have a place for a ramp. Would you tie it facing into the wind and back it onto ramp ?

For the skis I am leaning toward fabricating my own I have a guy on the KF facebook sending some dimensions and photos of ones he had made. When you do put it on skis does engine start ok at the lake?

Not much luck finding a local instructor to check me out on it. I am considering a trip to Idaho.

[av8rps]

Thanks for the encouragement it seems like it is taking for ever to get it out of the shop. Every time we turn around we decide to upgrade something. Now the weather has gone to heck here.

I do have a place for a ramp. Would you tie it facing into the wind and back it onto ramp ?

For the skis I am leaning toward fabricating my own I have a guy on the KF facebook sending some dimensions and photos of ones he had made. When you do put it on skis does engine start ok at the lake?

Not much luck finding a local instructor to check me out on it. I am considering a trip to Idaho.

Try to just enjoy doing the upgrades and improvements work and it will go fast.

You can put a floatplane on ramp either direction. Whichever direction most of the wind will come from is the direction to put the nose into, with the tail high. That "spills off" most of the wing lift, giving it a lower potential for pulling out tie downs or breaking ropes. At my house I usually put the nose toward shore and the tail low as the wind usually blows in from the lake and not from shore.

The downside with tail low is potential of rust from water accumulating in lower tubes, but then again after decades of parking mine that way, I've not seen any rust. Of course, having drain grommets back there lets the water out, so that may be why I've not had any issues.

912's don't start well without preheat, wheras the 2 strokes thrive in cold weather. But either work well in ski flying conditions.

[fastfred]

So nose up toward shore and that will put the prevailing wind at its back.

What do you preheat with in cold weather?

[av8rps]

I like two kinds of preheaters.

Typically at home an electric heater with flexible dryer duct attached to the fan side to blow warm air into cowl works well (put a cowl blanket over cowl to retain heat).

For when I'm away from home I like a small lp gas portable (E.g. a Mr. Heater with screw on lp cylinder) ducted the same way to the cowl as electric heater, but use a longer hose as now you have a gas flame and you don't need a flame too close to engine area. I keep that in baggage area only to use if needed. Typically a blanket over cowl will hold heat of engine long enough that you don't need to preheat when you are out flying around. But if you stay somewhere for an extended period you have a heater with you should you need it.

[fastfred]

Thanks . That gives me some good ideas. I was gonna try heat light bulb for its in the hanger. I used to use a hundred watt bulb with tin foil on my 1960 chevy truck. It worked on some cold nights.

[fastfred]

While I have you. Do you know where I can get information on making or buying the prop bridle? I am not finding much on it in the net.

[av8rps]

Hmmm, somewhere in my piles of old SPB stuff, I think I have a copy of an article that one of the EAA SPB volunteers that made the bridles wrote to show others how to do it. Just not sure that I will be able to find?

Anyone here have the ability to search EAA Magazines for articles? If not, I can put you in contact with the guy that makes them for EAA SPB.

[t j]

I found the article and started a new thread with it attached.
new Seaplane bridle thread http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=8388

[av8rps]

Thank you Tom. Much quicker than tearing my office apart ;)