Fuel quesstion for my 582

[beeryboats]

Hi all, and happy thanksgiving!
Modified rudder pedals are back in and I'm just about to turn the key on my remaned engine. The question of fuels and storage has come up. I can take gas cans to my not so local field for no lead auto gas, but would have to tow the plane to my local airport for avgas. I'm thinking of going with the no lead auto gas. Should I doctor it up with oil for the break-in even though it has oil injection? I would hate to burn up the engine waiting for the oil injector to catch up. And I will not fly in the winter due to storage issues, so how well does that no lead auto gas store? Additives?
thx jay

[jiott]

If I were to store my plane for more than a couple months, I would drain most of the Mogas out and fill the tanks (and run the engine) with 100LL. Then you can store for year+. Mogas fuel stabilizers like Sta-Bil may work, but there hasn't been enough collective experience in my view to trust it in such an expensive, critical component.

[Danzer1]

Mogas fuel stabilizers like Sta-Bil may work, but there hasn't been enough collective experience in my view to trust it in such an expensive, critical component.

IMHO, Sta-bil has been around for more than 50 years and works fine in all types of engines. Millions of gallons of history around for this product. What it doesn't do - it won't prevent fuel volitility from degrading over time (mogas or 100LL), so the longer any fuel is stored the less "ignitability" it will have.

Google "high octane gas" in your local area - you can usually find a few places around that will sell some without ethanol and let you pump some into cans - might be closer that the airport.

[jiott]

I use Sta-Bil in all my other engines, motorcycle, lawn mower, etc. but I just haven't heard of much use in aircraft engines; maybe I am wrong and just am not in the loop. What I have heard many times is to use 100LL for long term aircraft storage.

[TY2068]

I'd just follow the Rotax procedures for inital run, break in, and storage. Everything is pretty well laid out for short and long time storage. Are you refering to Non-Ethanol auto fuel or Ethanol blend ?

[Danzer1]

I use Sta-Bil in all my other engines, motorcycle, lawn mower, etc. but I just haven't heard of much use in aircraft engines; maybe I am wrong and just am not in the loop.

Still not following - the 582 referred to has variants in thousands of snowmobiles and boats. I don't think the fuel knows what kind of engine it's running in, nor do I think the engine knows what kind of vehicle it's in. There is no difference. Yet you recommend running 100LL, which is contrary to Rotax's recommendations. I don't get it.

[Guy Buchanan]

Well I don't think anyone answered your original question regarding initial oil. Rotax recommends using 100:1 on startup. I'd run full 50:1 until you can verify the oil's moving in the injection system. See this (http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginemaintenance/oilinjectionproblems.htm). As to storing auto fuel, you can use Sta-bil, but why? I'd empty my plane completely, then use that fuel in my car, then buy new next season. You must make sure you've emptied completely, as any residue will varnish, from what I've seen, and that's a major PITA.

[Av8r3400]

Sta-Bil will stabilize the fuel and keep the additives (mostly) in the car gas.

The problem is the car gas itself. There is so much unwanted BS added to car gas I don't like leaving it in the tanks to sit for long periods. Even the ethanol free variety has lots of BS in it. IMO, this is why older fiberglass fuel tanks have problems.

I would much rather drain and winterize with 100LL, a stable, fiberglass friendly fuel in it's own right. The LL will not hurt the engine. The car gas COULD hurt the tanks.

[Flybyjim]

Fuel is a problem in any engine and some fuels additives are changed depending on the season and location that you live. I have switched to Swift 94oct no lead aviation fuel and have had good results in 582 & 912, and C 85 in my L16A. I bought 350 gals and had it shipped to my hangar, cost less than 100LL at the local airport. Swift guarantees at least 1-year retention of the 94 oct even if stored outside in sunlight in their metal containers.

[Av8r3400]

Jim can you expand on this, please?

How did you buy the fuel, personally or through a business? How are you storing and dispensing it? Does the airport approve or know about it? For your own personal use or do you have a group usage?

I'm very much interested in doing something similar at my airport. Swift is available in our area. My hang ups are details of storage, approval and insurance standing in my way.

[efwd]

Dang, I don't even think my airport will allow adding fuel to the tanks unless it is at the fuel farm, let alone storing fuel. What a PITA.

[beeryboats]

Thanks guys. I would LOVE to run 100LL all the time, but getting it is going to be a PITA. I talked to the local, and I mean a mile away as a crow flys, fbo and they will not sell me gas unless the airplane is there. I would literally have to use a tow bar to haul the plane with wings folded about four miles each way to buy gas. I foresee about two tickets from the cops and one person causing an accident.

Which brings about another question. How much fuel can be stored in the tanks and still be able to fold them?

[Flybyjim]

I have my airfield on my farm 0PA2 (ZeroPA2) in Pa. So having the fuel on site is not an issue. The fuel was delivered to my business address that just happens to be the same address as the airfield so truck shipping was not an issue either. The delivery was with a 28 foot box truck with a lift gate, the fuel and container, called a tote weighed around 2500lbs. Swift provided a transfer pump to pump the fuel out of the tote and into our own containers. I have 2-100 gal tanks on a trailer that I store my fuel, the remainder of the fuel from the shipment was split between a couple other pilots that keep their planes at their own private airstrips.
Swift was great to work with, you can order the fuel in these totes, 55gal drums or by tanker shipments.
As for airport regulations and keeping your own fuel on site I am sure is a predicament for owner/operators of airports.

Any other questions? I will be happy to respond.

[jiott]

Danzer1, I have never recommended running 100LL, only using it for long term storage. However, many of us do run the 100LL occasionally when on x-country trips and Mogas is not available. Therefore, if I were to use it for storage, I wouldn't hesitate to use it up for flying when the storage period was over. Although I don't personally go along with it, as a point of interest, John McBean at the factory and Paul Leadabrand at Stick & Rudder burn 100LL exclusively in all their Rotax engines. They simply don't trust Mogas for cleanliness, additives, etc. They adjust oil change intervals accordingly and have never had problems with the lead as far as I know. Bottom line, the Rotax engines appear to be very forgiving when running (not storing) various types of fuel as long as the octane requirements and oil change intervals are met.

[Danzer1]

Danzer1, I have never recommended running 100LL, only using it for long term storage. However, many of us do run the 100LL occasionally when on x-country trips and Mogas is not available. Therefore, if I were to use it for storage, I wouldn't hesitate to use it up for flying when the storage period was over. Although I don't personally go along with it, as a point of interest, John McBean at the factory and Paul Leadabrand at Stick & Rudder burn 100LL exclusively in all their Rotax engines. They simply don't trust Mogas for cleanliness, additives, etc. They adjust oil change intervals accordingly and have never had problems with the lead as far as I know. Bottom line, the Rotax engines appear to be very forgiving when running (not storing) various types of fuel as long as the octane requirements and oil change intervals are met.

Your other statement:
and fill the tanks (and run the engine) with 100LL.

Jim, I get that - but you guys are running 4 stroke 912 engines. This thread is about a 2 stroke 582. I personally would never run leaded gas in any 2 stroke engine. FWIW

[jiott]

Just for clarification, My quote of "fill the tanks (and run the engine) with 100LL" was meant for just prior to long term storage to fill with 100LL and then run for just a few minutes to flush out the Mogas from the carbs.

[beeryboats]

Thanks for the input. After two pages I'm left with the impression I should run no lead mo-gas for daily summer use. Then add some 100LL and run that before I put her to bed for the winter. Fogging the engine of course.

It's hard to believe, but with twenty acres and my own grass strip, I have a storage issue. I have a good sized barn, but the layout sucks. I have a big post right in the middle of the 30' opening. Once I get everything put away for the winter I can't get the airplane out without playing a full sized game of Chinese Checkers! I even made my own roll around pads so I can move the plane sideways. I have to have the wings folded to go in the barn, then jockey it around until I can open the wings. Then I can put her on the rollers. Once on the roller pads I can fold her up and put it where I want. It's a two person job. So I'm still wondering how much fuel I can keep in the tanks with the wings folded.
Thanks,
Jay

[TY2068]

Here's what Rotax says to do for long term storage. Personally I'd just follow the official procedure. Section 11.1.3. Fog engine, Drain everything, Seal off entry and exists. Maybe pull the battery and store it somewhere out of freezing conditions too.

https://rotax-docs.secure.force.com/DocumentsSearch/sfc/servlet.shepherd/version/download/06812000002WN1bAAG?asPdf=false

[beeryboats]

Ok, so here we are almost a year later and I have yet to turn the key on this engine. I've weighed the aircraft and have to put fresh batteries in the ELT and run in the engine before calling the A&P for the inspection. I'm thinking of five or six gallons of leaded auto gas mixed 50:1 with proper oil mix with some Staybil. Run in the engine and run it out of fuel. Drain what is left and then removed the air filters and fog the engine by just cranking it over. I've never fogged an engine before so I'm asking if this will work as described.
Jay