Closer Now than We've Ever Been Before

[RCHooper]

This is my first post for a nine year TeamKitfox member and been reading a lot in the past 6 months, retired June 1st and looking at purchasing a 1998 Series 5 Vixen project from the original owner and fixxen to look at it this weekend. The project has quite a few upgrades to the series 7 Super Sport and is not yet covered. So I can see and look at it all.

What are some of the important things to look for and perhaps the top x things that are "Don't do it!" items.

Thank you all in advance.

regards,
hoop

[jmodguy]

Look at teh overall quality of the work that has been done so far. Make sure the pieces are all there, especially the bigger more expensive parts, i.e. flaperons, windscreen, control rods, seat pan etc. If the wings are assembled make sure they are straight.
I would count on new fuel tanks. About 1100 with shipping for 2.
If anything major is missing, price it accordingly. Don't forget to include shipping from Idaho to home for the big parts.

[RCHooper]

Jeff,
Thank you for your response.
I was wondering about the fuel tanks, which have not been installed yet, but are 18+ years old.
Saw it this past weekend and the craftsmenship seemed good. The wings were hanging on the back wall with an 1/8" of black dust on them. I'm not sure what I was expecting, though I thought everything would be better organized. There was no builder's log or photo log for the work completed.

I'm sure this is a great project for someone.

I'm usually not the type of person who buys things and fixes them up. I've done it and enjoyed it. But haven't done it with an airplane kit and not sure that I want to try that now.

Thanks for your help and comments.

Regards
Hoop

[southwind32]

I bought a Kitfox SS 7 project a couple of months ago. It was started in 2008. The wings were covered and taped with polybrush applied. The fuselage sides and bottom were covered and taped up through polybrush. The airplane had sat in a garage for a couple years or so. When I picked it up, I looked things over fairly quickly. I wasn't to concerned about minor things. I didn't even care about the condition of the fabric. I bought it at a very good price. When I got it home, I discovered a rats/mouse nest in one wing, further investigation found one spar with corrosion, that I'm replacing. Needless to say, the fabric was completely removed. Some of the items I felt needed attention on the fuselage were, the rudder pedals were stiff, one wouldn't move. The control column was stiff and rough (two bad bearings). One rudder cable had been nicked with something, and had some broken cable strands. Found a nicked in the rudder post, that looked like it had been made with a cutoff wheel. Made a patch and weld it in, but due to welding I had to take out most of the vertical stabilizer ribs. I essentially took everything apart on the fuselage and redid it to my satisfaction. Don't get me wrong, the previous owners overall work wasn't bad, i think due to sitting, and possibly him going back to correct some of the faults I found, because no bolts and nuts were tight on anything. Some of the items, like the cable and the nick in the tail post were probably ok, they probably would have never failed, but I didn't like them, so like I said, I fixed them to my satisfaction. Total cost of new parts for everything including fabric is around $1000. I could spend twice what I paid for the project and still be money ahead, so I'm not complaining, and haven't objected to fixing anything. I can basically say, that I've built everything on it now LOL. Not taken over someones project and finished it.
So, using my experience perhaps will help give you some guidance. Look it over, buy it right, but plan on fixing some things too, even if you don't spot it intially, after you get it home, and start going over it, you'll find items, you don't like. I have a friend building F-! Rocket that he bought partially build, and he's gone through the same thing I have. He too, has had to back track and correct some issues.

[PapuaPilot]

I had a similar experience with the Model 5 that I bought. It was 14 years since new and about 20% built. Things were basically in good shape; but the rudder pedals were too tight, I found corrosion on the aluminum side formers, etc. I can't complain about it for the price I paid. Yes, you should expect to redo some things and possibly replace some too.

[RCHooper]

Thank you all,

Your're helping me warm up to a project purchase, thank you. But I am kind of struggling with price - What would be a fair/ market price for a Tri gear series 5 with many upgrades without engine and panel?

Again thank you.

Hoop

[PapuaPilot]

Have you decided what your budget is for the entire project. After buying the airframe you will still need to get an engine, prop and avionics/panel; these could run you another $30-40K if you go with new. When you add that to the price for the airframe plus other supplies, tools, etc. to complete the build you could have $50-60K in the entire project. FYI you can find a nice used model 5-7 for that price.

IMHO I would suggest paying around 30-50% of what it would cost to buy the same new stuff from the factory at the current prices. Find out what kits (airframe, wings, etc.), accessories and any other parts are included in the purchase of the Vixen and calculate it from there.

FYI some of the supplies that may come with the Vixen will not be useable and have no value (i.e. 20 year old cans of Poly Fiber supplies, glue, etc.). You will need to buy them new.

The bottom line is it is worth what you are willing to pay, but make sure you try to calculate the true cost to finish it.

[RCHooper]

Well I just spent an hour composing a well thought out response and now it went off somewhere BALDERDASH! I think I'll try this again tomorrow

[RCHooper]

Phil,

Great question. It is always how much do you want to spend. So my quick answer is As Low As Reasonably Achievable. We haven't been real 'exact' on the budget, but have calculated the maxed out Kitfox with kit+ options + engine + instruments/avionics + enclosed trailer and we're approaching the 80k+ amount. At that amount my pucker factor goes up significantly and I question my desires and then start working on the must have list vs the maxed out kf. So currently it's a kf 5 Vixen or Voyager, 6 or super sport 7. With a Rotax 912 or 914 (wishful thinking) and VFR glass panel.

I like your 30-50% of current list price as a price guideline for the project buy value, it seems to make sense.

Thank you for your thoughts and discussion, it's helping me fine tune (getting my head out of the clouds!) the budget.

regards,
hoop

[PapuaPilot]

Glad to hear that it was helpful.

When I was looking for an unfinished kit I was really hoping to find one with the airframe and an engine too. I figured if I could get both things at 50% of new cost it would be a much better deal than just getting the airframe. I saw the one I ended up getting on Barnstormers and jumped on it, making the first offer. I ended up paying about 45% of the current new prices, but got the airframe, all the KF accessories, lighting, ELT, upholstery, prop, firewall forward kit and the Continental engine (new in the crate). I was able to use the fabric, but had to replace the Poly Fiber products due to their age. I ended up getting a bunch of tools and hardware from the seller that was not mentioned in the ad. This brought the cost down to about 40% of the value of everything I purchased. I couldn't have asked for a better situation. The seller had not gotten the instruments and avionics; in my mind steam gauges and a GPS or LORAN from 1995 would have zero value. I ended up putting in the Garmin G3X Touch 10" screen, Garmin radio, transponder and ADSB in.

I ended up selling the 121.5 ELT, Whelan strobe lighting, 8.50x6 tires (heavy) and propeller (all new) and replaced them with a 406 ELT, LED lighting and a Catto prop. Some of the other things that I replaced was a bigger elevator, tailwheel spring, alternator and one electronic ignition (removed one magneto).

If the Vixen kit includes steam gauges and you that is what you really wan then they are of value, but if you want a digital panel they don't have much value to you as the buyer.

[kitfox2009]

Hello Hoop
If you are successful with the Vixen deal and don't want the Westac gauges and senders kindly let me know. Mine is mid 90s (first flight 1999) and I would like spares. Guess I m old school and like the round stuff.
My Vixen was completed by original,kit builder and had only 100 hours when I bought in 1999. Got lucky. They are GREAT aircraft. With the 80 hp maybe not as peppy as a 4 with S but still pretty nice. I average about 16 litres hour on non ethena mogas. Over 740 hours now.with lots of over the mountain trips up to 1150 at times.
If you get your head around the price,Go for It.
Don
l

[RCHooper]

Don,
Thanks for your post. If I decide and the deal goes through I'll keep your request in mind. Glad you wrote it here so I'd be able to find it later 😊
I learned how to fly on steam gauges and am respectful of their technology I'm just easily swooned by the clean glass and digital precision of the new technologies.
Thanks too for letting me know your Vixen Series 5 experience and that you don't need a turbo to go 1150 over mountains.
Regards
Hoop