VFR panel ideas ??

[southwind32]

I'm building an SS7 and just starting to get some ideas for my panel, which is aways off yet.
Like most, money is a consideration. I know very little about the so called glass cockpits, however I have thousands of hours IFR and VFR as a professional pilot & CFI on steam gauges. I'm not looking for a lot of bells and whistles. Here's a list of what I'd like.

Flight instruments.
Engine Instruments
GPS, moving map.
Transponder ADSB out (2020 compliant)
Comm Radio

I'm not interested in IFR, just VFR
I'll be installing a 4 cylinder Cont O-200 engine.

Just curious what you would recommend? Also, what do you think the above equipment would cost?
I can do the installation myself if needed, would like to have a shop do the panel, but I'm sure that wouldn't be cheap, any idea what that cost would be?
One last question, any idea, what a steam gauge comparable panel would cost compared to the above?

Any ideas, comments pros or cons, and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Brian

[efwd]

All my stuff is Garmin. 10" and 7" screen (could do with one screen -$2000), Auto pilot with 2 servos (could do without $2200), Com radio and Mode S with squiter ADSB in and out compliant with WAAS GPS. That all meets your needs and Subtract what I could do without and you would be left with about 13 to $14K

[PaulSS]

Have a look at MGL (http:///www.mglavionics.com/html/iefis_lite.html)

8.5" iEFIS Lite $2850
RDAC for your engine $375
SP6 Magnetometer $260

Total $3485

Add 2 autopilot servos $1900

I'd go for a remote radio and transponder (mine are Trig) but you'll have to see what those cost in the US as I don't know.

Obviously the EFIS has a moving map but if you wanted something separate (that can also be loaded up with some form of nav software) then look at the Guardian Avionics panel mount for an iPad (or mini). Looks much better than an ugly RAM mount sticking out of the panel :)

[jiott]

My Dynon VFR panel fully ADS-B in & out 2020 compliant. Garmin SL40 radio, PS Engr intercom, Falcon vertical card compass. About $7000 4.5 years ago.

[jrevens]

Hi Brian - I don't know if this will be helpful... I hope so. I too am building an SS7, and decided from the get-go that I wanted only VFR "old fashioned" steam gauges - plus a few whistles & bells. Keep in mind that I used some relatively expensive individual 1.25" UMA engine monitoring instruments - there are cheaper options. Everything is new. I used mil-spec sealed Honeywell toggle switches, TruTrak Digitrak single-axis autopilot, Garmin com radio and Garmin Mode C Transponder, iFly 740 GPS, uAvionix ADS-B in & out, TruTrak solid-state Pictorial Turn & Bank, etc. Everything, including wire, connectors, etc. was about 10 grand. The bulk of that is in the avionics. I think you could build a basic panel for a lot less than that. I like the looks and the concept of individual gauges and components, and that's why I did it - not because it would be a lot cheaper. It's what I wanted... it just suits me.

[ken nougaret]

Steam gauges is what the wife i wanted. Relatively cheap but i dont have a cost for you at this time. Comm and transponder purchased used. Wiring was fairly easy except for the transponder/alt encoder; had to throw $330 to the avionics shop to correct wiring mistakes. Using a 7" tablet for gps and go-pro management.

[efwd]

Ken, that is a beautiful panel. Just the way I would copy you had I seen it and was going steam. Im not very original, my glass is a copy as well.
Eddie

[DesertFox4]

Great looking panels guys. Congrats. I'd enjoy flying behind all of them.

[ken nougaret]

Ken, that is a beautiful panel. Just the way I would copy you had I seen it and was going steam. Im not very original, my glass is a copy as well.
Eddie

Thanks Eddie!

[jrevens]

I agree with Eddie, Ken... it looks really good!

[PaulSS]

Ken's it what my wife would want. Jim's is almost what I would want (just remote mount the radio, with a built in intercom, and hide a smaller compass elsewhere.....perfect) :)

[jiott]

I have been asked many times what I would do if my glass panel suddenly went dark since I have no backup gauges. I would simply fly the plane by looking out the window, which is what I do most of the time anyway. I can hold approach speeds pretty close by flying a slight positive AOA by watching the underside of the wing against the horizon. I am a sport pilot so I don't fly at night.

To be honest, I do carry some backups: Sporty's handheld radio w/VOR navigation, some out-of-date paper charts, smartphone with Avare, etc. on it, and maybe soon an iPad with Foreflight.

[Dave S]

I have to agree with Jim O 100%.......old style or new panel....we should all be able to maintain control of the aircraft if any of the stuff on the panel dies. I have some vague recollection that is what we were all originally taught.:cool:

Back in my rental days.......it seemed that something was going to quit on you no matter what degree of technology occupied the panel....most common was radios, electrical system and vacuum instruments and an occasional glob of crud up the pitot tube.

I always kept a supply of post it notes, in addition to using them for notes, they were handy covering up the somewhat distracting failed vacuum instruments - which always seemed to coincide with vis of 4-6.:rolleyes:

[southwind32]

I've been a CFII MEI for 45 years, I've always taught the primary instrument is what you see through the windshield.
As many have commented in recent years, the latest crop of avionics, from moving maps to MFD etc tend to draw pilots, especially newer pilots eyes from being outside the cockpit to the panel. I forget what the FAA recommends for percentage of eyes outside the cockpit, I think it was something like 80%, I always taught 99% outside, a quick glance certain instruments is all you need to attain the desired information.
Most of your 5 senses are instruments and can be applied to flying, eyes, for attitude, and even altitude to a degree, ears, for Airspeed and power settings, touch, how the airplane feels and is trimmed, and even smell can be used to detect a possible engine problem ie; smoke etc.
Eyes being in the cockpit will probably get worse in the future when pilots will be staring at the displays looking for traffic, instead of again, a quick glance will do.
Safe Flying.
Brian

[Flybyjim]

Brian,

Excellent post, I have only been flying for about 20 years and when I fly with folks with the new glass panels I get very worried especially in the pattern, eyes are not outside. I like new tech stuff also but eyes, smell and your butt are much further ahead of the curve than all the glass. Kudos again on your post.

[Bud Davidson]

Intended to pass on this but need to share an old experience. In 1962 flying out of Waukesha WI, in a Cessna 140 ...only steam gauges... Instructor took me to a marsh with a few trees and we flew around them. (Former Navy flight instructor) Reason, I insisted on looking at the gadgets, as few as there were. He made his point and I have always flown with eyes outside since. Hate even to look down at a chart. Airplanes are not video games.
Remember rule 1... Fly the airplane.
Strongly agree with these recent posts
Bud

[southwind32]

Intended to pass on this but need to share an old experience. In 1962 flying out of Waukesha WI, in a Cessna 140 ...only steam gauges... Instructor took me to a marsh with a few trees and we flew around them. (Former Navy flight instructor) Reason, I insisted on looking at the gadgets, as few as there were. He made his point and I have always flown with eyes outside since. Hate even to look down at a chart. Airplanes are not video games.
Remember rule 1... Fly the airplane.
Strongly agree with these recent posts
Bud

This is one of the reasons ground reference maneuvers are required for a private pilot certificate.

[jtpitkin06]

VFR panel means a lot of different things
to different pilots.

My definition is pretty simple.

I wanted minimal but talked myself into
a turn coordinator because it was free.

CHT and EGT are there to keep the engine
Running.
Oh, yeah, I got a good deal on the VSI too.

No glass.

[Dave S]

John,

Ended up with the same 4 flight instruments you have and no glass (other than the literal glass in the form of the little round disks covering the faces of the aforementioned instruments).

Also wanted to keep it simple, inexpensive and spend most of the time gazing out the window:). I never had any intention or desire to make our kitfox an IFR machine.

Wentworth has an airplane junkyard in Minneapolis down the street from me and I found that not only are there a lot of parts from junked airplanes; but, they have tons and tons of non-glass gear because of all the folks pulling stuff out to put in glass. The instruments I got from Wentworth were not very old either.

[efwd]

You guys may have got the right idea. I bet when all my glass stuff becomes outdated as my computers and phones do in 5 years, I will be wishing I had the classic stuff too.
Eddie

[Esser]

I learned to fly on steam and have flown the last 13 years on steam. The thing that amazes me about glass is how much information you can disseminate at a glance with out looking all over your panel. Not as important VFR flying but it's pretty neat.

[jiott]

OK maybe I am a glass junky, but I feel I should stick up for the glass even in a VFR panel. First of all I can't imagine building a beautiful VFR Kitfox and not considering taking it on some long x-country's, the therefore you need some kind of navigation. Yes you can use paper and pilotage, but what a self-imposed handicap. Or, many folks say I will use my iPad w/Foreflight. Again, what a self-imposed handicap with its tendency to overheat & shut down, hard to read in sunlight and glare, jury rigged mounting, subscription costs, etc. Why not an aircraft quality, built-in screen with free database updates and free firmware updates (try that with an iPad). I've been using my Dynon Skyview for 4 years now and itis still as up-to-date as ever at no additional cost to me. I have a hunch that the folks with steam gauges and iPads will have spent as much as I or more over the years in replacing obsolete iPads and subscription costs, and repairing failure prone gyro instruments.

I'm trying to be good natured here and I totally understand the nostalgia thing. Just thought the other camp needed explanation.

[efwd]

Nice Jim.
I was just speculating. Glad to hear that its all still current. I thought that maybe since I bought the stuff a year ago and still no plans to use it for about one more year I may be looking at outdated stuff just as it starys getting use.

[Ramos]

So, help me out here since I don't know the answer. What is the difference in weight between a basic steam panel (like pictured in post # 18) and a single panel glass system? I hear guys talking about it but wonder if it is enough to even be part of the decision making process and it has not entered into this thread. Thanks.

[jiott]

Maybe some of the guys with the much older D10/180 Dynon panels can chime in, but I believe Dynon is still supporting these old panels with free software updates.

[jiott]

Ramos, I can't quote any numbers and it would depend on if you are comparing to a full 6-pack or partial steam panel, but there is a definite weight savings with solid state glass panel, especially if your glass includes engine instrumentation and remote transponder. Of course if you add steam style backup instruments (which you shouldn't need much of for VFR) it cuts down the weight savings.

[jrevens]

So, help me out here since I don't know the answer. What is the difference in weight between a basic steam panel (like pictured in post # 18) and a single panel glass system? I hear guys talking about it but wonder if it is enough to even be part of the decision making process and it has not entered into this thread. Thanks.

It will be very variable... so many possibilities both ways. Don't forget to include the weight of components not mounted directly on the panel but necessary to make the glass panel display work also.

[jiott]

Did I also mention Skyview is fully compatible and ready for ADS-B both OUT and IN. If your system already includes the Dynon remote mode S transponder, ADS-B OUT can be had for a simple $600 changeout of the GPS antenna. ADS-B IN with free traffic, weather, TFR's, etc. can be added with a small $800 module and a small Xponder style antenna. My system that I purchased 4.5 years ago was fully compatible and ready for these simple additions.

[David47]

So I'm having a bit each way. I thought long and hard about this before I bought stuff. I'm using a 8.5" MGL lite screen, above which I have steam 2 1/4" asi and alt. I get engine gauges and all the other flight instrument stuff that goes with glass. But my panel isn't about redundancy in case of electrics out, it's about what I'm comfortable with. And imho, that's as it should be for anyone designing their panel. Maybe in time I'll flick the steam gauges and go purely glass, but right now, that's my story. ;)

[colospace]

Just a question about what others have done for the glare shield overhang (particularly for a glass panel). I am about to trim mine and had been thinking of up to a 2" overhang to insure good shading. I'm now thinking this would be excessive but, thinking 1" would be too little, I'm envisioning a 1.5" overhang. Any feed back as to what others have done or think on this matter would be appreciated.

[jiott]

I have a 1" overhang and a Dynon glass panel. Have never noticed an issue with not enough shading.

[Av8r3400]

My glare shield was trimmed flush to the panel, but I wanted an overhang. I used the same carpet as the rest of my interior, so I just cut it long and folded it over on itself to make the overhang.

It's flexible, yet rigid enough to hold its shape. About a 2" overhang. Seeing my Garmin GPS or the Dynon D180 has not been an issue.

[PapuaPilot]

I don't have any overhang. When the sun is overhead I put an auto windshield shade above my head to block out extra light. I am using one piece of the jumbo windshield covers from Walmart.

[Dave S]

Finishing the glareshield, decided on a flat gray lacquer finish on the fiberglass with a 1" overhang. The fiberglass edge has some potential for cuts and scrapes so decided to guard the lip by slitting a piece of vacuum hose and slipped that over the edge. Also installed the intensity adjustable red LED tape from Steinair behind the tube. (FYI The white interior light is on a separate switch.)

The lip protrusion with the tube is about 1 1/4" and have never had an issue with glare.

[N213RV]

Here is my panel..... Dynon SkyView, and a Garmin 696. Full 2020 ADSB in and out compliant, clean panel, and both have remote battery back up.

[ken nougaret]

Here is my panel..... Dynon SkyView, and a Garmin 696. Full 2020 ADSB in and out compliant, clean panel, and both have remote battery back up.

Now that's beautiful!

[efwd]

Yep, that is pretty. I just love those radios. The only reason I bought Garmin was to keep it all uniform. Those were what I really would have liked.
Eddie

[colospace]

Well, here is what I ended up doing. About 1-1/4" overhang. McMaster Carr edge trim. Six vent holes w/screens to let hot air out from behind panel. Black oxide stainless screws and washers (not screwed down in photo).
Paper labels are place holding until I receive the final placards.

[southwind32]

Thanks for the replies.........in the last few weeks, I've learned a lot about EFIS's. So instead of know practically nothing about them a few weeks ago...........I know know very little LOL I've looked at the Dynon, GRT, and MGL...........Garmin appears to be out of my price range, my price range is cheap. From what I've seen, it looks like GRT has the most for the dollar, and appears they're a good company.
I've also looked at just doing steam gauges. Even without gyro's, By the time I figure in flight instruments and engine instruments, I can install a GRT SX EFIS and their engine monitor with GPS for the same price...........it's actually cheaper and I get more plus GPS. Would love to hear pros and cons on GRT or anything I've said.
Thanks
Brian

[Av8r3400]

When I was setting my plan, the GRT was in the running. To do their flight and engine instrument, it required the installation of their EIS box as well as the flight instrument box. I asked the rep at OSH if both were needed, because the flight box also displays the engine info, I was told yes. The EIS box drives the other box.

I was told I could just bury the EIS box behind the panel and not display it. I didn't like that idea for the room it took as well as the wiring complexity. Not to mention buying an EIS box, then hiding it.

The Dynon was all in one box and seemed easier to install/wire.

[southwind32]

When I was setting my plan, the GRT was in the running. To do their flight and engine instrument, it required the installation of their EIS box as well as the flight instrument box. I asked the rep at OSH if both were needed, because the flight box also displays the engine info, I was told yes. The EIS box drives the other box.

I was told I could just bury the EIS box behind the panel and not display it. I didn't like that idea for the room it took as well as the wiring complexity. Not to mention buying an EIS box, then hiding it.

The Dynon was all in one box and seemed easier to install/wire.

The GRT SX has builtin AHRS, Magnetometer and GPS, the only other box is the engine monitor. The engine monitor (EIS) has a small screen which can be panel mounted or hidden and is interfaced with the EFIS. All this for about $4000 with a 8.4" EFIS, that includes wiring and 4 cyl probes.
What Dynon do you have? When I've looked at Dynon it says I need a Magnetometer, engine monior and a AHRS.........sounds like I'm not looking at the right thing.

[PaulSS]

The MGL iEFIS Lite has a built in AHARS, so that's one box removed.

You need a box (RDAC CAN) to wire up your various engine inputs and then that info gets transmitted to the EFIS display by a couple of twisted wires (CAN bus). There's no need to have a separate EIS because it's on the EFIS screen.

It's up to you whether you need or want to install a magnetometer (SP6). In the Kitfox this doesn't seem to be a problem because you have the removable wingtip fairings and that seems to be an excellent place to mount the SP6. For a Eurofox (my aircraft choice) it's much more of a pain in the butt because the wing is really the only place for it to go because of the steel in the frame and the fairings are not removable. This may create problems for me in the future for access but with the KF you are laughing. Of course, if you don't need a magnetic compass on your EFIS and aren't bothered about having a wind arrow then you don't need the magnetometer at all.....just fly on the GPS track line, like we do 99% of the time anyway.

As I said on the other thread, you can remote mount both the Trig radio and transponder and control them through your MGL EFIS, so get a really clean panel :D

[Av8r3400]

I have the Dynon FlightDEK D180. Link (http://m.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/dekd180.php)

I bought mine from at OSH from one of the "coast" avionics shops as a package with sensors and a remote magnetometer (I put in the wing tip). IIRC, the cost was less than $4k. Total panel investment on the rebuild was about $7.5k for the Dynon, iCom A210, Garmin 327, harnesses, breaker switches, antennas and other hardware.

14434

[PaulSS]

Left foot unserviceable eh :D:D:D

[jiott]

The Dynon Skyview EFIS uses separate engine monitor box, ADHRS box (includes magnetometer), and optional back-up battery (highly recommended).

[tpav]

This may not be 100% practical but as an exercise I mocked this up to see how minimal a VFR glass panel could be. I envision an upholstered panel sloping to the base of the windshield and using all remote mounted Garmin boxes driving one GX3. Thinking out of the box so to speak. I'm not a builder (at least not yet). :D

http://www.ttiimm.com/TPpanel-1.jpg

[PaulSS]

I like it and love clean panels BUT :)

(a)Get rid of the silly bottle holder
(b)You don't need a separate AoA indicator; that'll be on the EFIS
(c)Why (nowadays) have a separate avionics switch? If you don't trust the resilience of modern electronics to handle the start up voltage 'spikes' (which they do) then put something like a TCW IPS behind the panel.
(d)Nav/Strobes and Landing/Wig Wags could be combined into 2 x 3 position switches

I wish I didn't have to have backup ASI, altimeter and compass or else your design would almost be my Nirvana :D

[tracstarr]

Very Nice! What did you design that with? I've been dreaming up similar things as well. But I'm thinking the entire thing in carbon fiber.

Are those USB ports on each bottom corner? Nice.

I'd remove the key ignition myself and just use switches (but i'm thinking 912is).

I'm also thinking for myself either a second screen or ipad mount, sliding that main display over to the left.

Also, personally, I'm thinking of adding built in camera mount locations using standard size screw in type adapters. This would allow things like using it for phone mount or ipad arm or camera.

[Clark in AZ]

Good job! I too am interested the software you used for this?

[Esser]

I like it and love clean panels BUT :)

(a)Get rid of the silly bottle holder


Don’t like cup holders? Coffee makes planes fly in my neck of the woods.

[Av8r3400]

For me, coffee is usually the greatest need to land airplanes... :eek:

[efwd]

Cool. Since you don't need the AOA instrument, you can add another cup holder! ;)

[colospace]

Looks really upscale; I'm also curious on the software you used.
What about Comm radio, Intercom, ELT, cabin heat controls?

[tpav]

(a)Get rid of the silly bottle holder
A. Have to appease the wife!


(b)You don't need a separate AoA indicator; that'll be on the EFIS

B. Noted. Though it's rather small on screen, but I'm sure there are audio cues that bring your attention to an AoA problem.


(c)Why (nowadays) have a separate avionics switch? If you don't trust the resilience of modern electronics to handle the start up voltage 'spikes' (which they do) then put something like a TCW IPS behind the panel.
(d)Nav/Strobes and Landing/Wig Wags could be combined into 2 x 3 position switches
C, D. Noted. I'll learn more about those things in time.


I wish I didn't have to have backup ASI, altimeter and compass or else your design would almost be my Nirvana :D

U.S. experimentals aren't required to have any specific instrumentation correct?

[tpav]

Looks really upscale; I'm also curious on the software you used.
What about Comm radio, Intercom, ELT, cabin heat controls?

To all those who asked, this was done in Adobe Illustrator. I've used it for years on the job. I could export some of the parts to use in other programs.

Comm and Audio panel can be remote mounted it seems from Garmin (in theory) in use it may be asking too much to access all this on one screen.

No cabin heat needed in California?

ELT, I see some panels with, others without. Can the interface be mounted elsewhere?

[efwd]

If you look closely in the display you can see where the radio frequencies are located. Touch screen and the radio buttons pop up. The actual radios are remote mounted as he states. If this panel was in my plane I would just have to add a heater control rocker switch and the ELT test/activation control head. That is why glass panels can be so clean. Remote mount everything. Nothing says you have to mount the ELT switch on the panel either, I suppose.

[jiott]

Originally Posted by PaulSS View Post
I wish I didn't have to have backup ASI, altimeter and compass or else your design would almost be my Nirvana


In my view, if you only fly daylight VFR, you don't need backup ASI or altimiter. If the EFIS goes dark you can still easily fly a Kitfox by just looking outside. What you probably DO need as a backup is a wet compass; most people need help in flying a heading.

[PaulSS]

In my view, if you only fly daylight VFR, you don't need backup ASI or altimiter.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately both authorities with whom I'm involved (UK and Oz) think otherwise and insist we have these things. The UK even makes a standby compass a mandatory item.....chocolate fire guard springs to mind :rolleyes:

As EFWD says, the comm panels hide on the EFIS until you press them and then they enlarge for data entry (or just transfer it from the nav display). It is more than sufficient to not require radio or transponder panels mucking up the nice, clean look. Radios have an intercom built in, so no need for a separate box.

Yep, you can set your AoA indicator to send tones to your headset, so you don't need a large display. Of course you don't absolutely need the AOA but it's a useful feature and if you've got it......well, you know the rest. I'm ex-Royal Navy, so I like the nice, steady tone telling me I'm on-speed.

Coffee gets drunk doing the day job. Coffee gets spilt when I'm playing :)

912iS for me as well, so: no master switch but the key would act as the master switch and, therefore, provide a bit of security as well. Would obviously need the LANE A, LANE B, Fuel Pump A & Fuel Pump B switches, which is a shame. How about controlling the lights through the EFIS via an electronic circuit breaker? That would get rid of the need for a couple of the switches. Combine that with the 'airborne' switch in the EFIS and you could set it up so you wouldn't have to even turn them on or off.....but obviously have the option to do so.

My OCD would entail hiding the USB ports (perhaps just underneath the panel). I agree with having the functionality available, I just don't want to see the ports and/or the wires.

I like gadgets and I like the look of this panel (minus cup holders) :D

[rosslr]

In my view, if you only fly daylight VFR, you don't need backup ASI or altimiter.
I agree 100%.

Unfortunately both authorities with whom I'm involved (UK and Oz) think otherwise and insist we have these things. The UK even makes a standby compass a mandatory item.....chocolate fire guard springs to mind


Paul,

I don't think we need to have backup ASI or altimiter in OZ (?). At least nobody told me!

cheers

r

[colospace]

I sure get a kick out of you Oz folk. Had to google that "chocolate fire guard" bit. :D

[David47]

In my view, if you only fly daylight VFR, you don't need backup ASI or altimiter.
I agree 100%.

Paul,

I don't think we need to have backup ASI or altimiter in OZ (?). At least nobody told me!

cheers

r

Ross, If you have an Experimental Certificate and a VH- number - which you do - and you don't have a backup ASI and ALT - which you don't - then either the AP made a mistake in issuing the certificate (unlikely) or we don't need a backup ASI and Alt. I haven't seen that in any CASA EAB aircraft documents so far. Having said that though, I am putting both on my panel - personal choice based on my comfort level.