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beeryboats
08-20-2017, 11:23 AM
I finally had a day to myself to hang the prop on my KF4 with a 582 blue head. In reading the instructions you can't miss the "MUST HAVE A FACEPLATE". I didn't recall a faceplate coming off, so I went to check on the old GSC woody to see if it was still on the old prop. No dice, it just mounted to the engine flange. In looking in the Leading Edge catalog I don't see a "faceplate" for sale.

So here I am, stuck. Has anyone else been here before?
Jay

edit: never mind, I found it in with the bolts.

mr bill
08-20-2017, 12:22 PM
I think you only need a faceplate on a wood prop hub. With an aluminum hub it would not bee needed.

beeryboats
08-20-2017, 01:59 PM
Ok, still need help. Was just starting to bolt the prop to the engine when I remembered the spinner cap. Ran home, down the driveway, and found the spinner has its own big thick plate. So do I use both plates, the spinner back plate on top of the steel one in the kit, or just use the plate from the spinner?

Dave S
08-20-2017, 02:33 PM
Jim,

There are normally two applications requiring a crush plate (may also be called a "face plate"). Our plane has a Warp Tapered tip with HPL hub on the front of a 912ULS.

1) In the case of a wood prop - to disperse the torque of the bolts evenly over the prop head.

2) With a spinner bulkhead (and that depends on the specific spinner). For instance, we installed a UHS spinner with a fiberglass bulkhead which is designed to have a crush plate on top of the bulkhead to lend it stability and to disperse the torque over the bulkhead rather than concentrating the pressure right under the bolt heads. Attached photos of the UHS spinner/bulkhead which required a single crush plate on top of the bulkhead.

I can't imagine any situation where two crush plates would ever be needed. You may have a case where the prop supplier provided one and the spinner people provided one, each as an accessory to their product - possible duplication which beats not getting any from either!

The final authority would be prop and the spinner supplier - any doubts might be a good idea to call up both of them.

ohlhausenr
08-20-2017, 04:22 PM
I just installed a three blade Warp Drive prop on my blue head 582 and ordered the Rotax face plate with the prop. Warp Drive recommend installing a Rotax face plate with their prop. Try www.warpdriveprops.com (http://www.warpdriveprops.com) for info on the face plate. I ordered my prop from them and received good service.
Hope this will help you.

beeryboats
08-20-2017, 04:35 PM
This is what we've always called a skull cap spinner. It does not cover the whole hub or have cut outs for the blades. It has a fairly thick base plate with a central stem that is threaded for a central screw from the spinner cap.

I assume the back plate for the spinner replaces the "face plate" called out in the prop instructions, but I'm not 100% sure.
Jay

beeryboats
08-20-2017, 04:40 PM
Just found on Hover Hawk web site that the spinner back plate can be used as the face plate on Warp drive props. Just wasted an entire day on this issue. Wish they included instructions with the spinner....
Jay

avidflyer
08-20-2017, 07:56 PM
As long as you are this far into the day, give Darrel a call at Warp Drive in the morning and get an answer from him. He is real good to talk with. If his info on the site isn't clear enough, maybe he will fix it and the next guy won't have the same issue as you just had. JImChuk

beeryboats
08-21-2017, 05:48 AM
Per the log books the former owner set the GSC prop at 17 degrees. Not sure where he measured this at on the blade...
Anyone remember where they set their blade pitch at? Or at least a good starting point.

t j
08-21-2017, 08:09 AM
GSC pitch is measured at 75% of the blade length. Warp drive degrees of pitch is measured at the tips of the blades. My 503 is set at 11.5 degrees at the tip, I suspect the 582 will need a little more than that.

FWIW, you're not the only one confused by the warp installation instructions. I installed my warp prop with the skull cap spinner 16 years ago and the instructions about the face plate confused me too.

beeryboats
08-21-2017, 02:51 PM
GSC pitch is measured at 75% of the blade length. Warp drive degrees of pitch is measured at the tips of the blades. My 503 is set at 11.5 degrees at the tip, I suspect the 582 will need a little more than that.

FWIW, you're not the only one confused by the warp installation instructions. I installed my warp prop with the skull cap spinner 16 years ago and the instructions about the face plate confused me too.

Thanks Tom. I'm a little worried if I set it too low it may over rev the engine during break-in. Or if I set it too aggressive it may not rev enough to wear it in either.

beeryboats
08-21-2017, 03:54 PM
I changed out the "face plate" for the spinner back plate and that worked fine. My issue is now the mounting bolt length and the length of the spacers inside the hub. If the hub pulls together enough to take the slack out of the spacers, which I doubt, the mount bolts will hit the gearbox. And what blows my mind is they include washers and lock nuts for the mount bolts but the crank shaft flange is threaded. But the bolt heads are not drilled for safety wire! Are you supposed to wiggle the lock nut behind the flange and somehow torque it to spec against the back side of the flange?

t j
08-21-2017, 06:59 PM
Warp doesn't use safety wire to secure the mounting bolts. They use lock nuts on the mounting bolts instead. You torque the mounting bolts into the prop flange then tighten the locking nuts.

I don''t have the bolt tightening sequence instructions for the standard hub. Mine is the HPL hub and those instructions are to torque the mounting bolts first, then torque the blade clamping bolts.

In your photos the mounting bolt spacers appear to be kind of short. Better call Darrel like Avidflyer suggested and or send him those photos too.

ppilotmike
08-22-2017, 12:34 PM
Just installed my warp drive yesterday. ALL of the instructions are available on warpdriveinc.com under downloads. I will also add the folks at warp drive are great to talk to as well as deal with they hooked me up with the missing pieces I needed. Mike:)

t j
08-22-2017, 01:31 PM
Thanks Tom. I'm a little worried if I set it too low it may over rev the engine during break-in. Or if I set it too aggressive it may not rev enough to wear it in either.

It's trial and error. Darrel should be able to give you a setting that will be very close for your engine and gear box ratio. You set the prop up, warm up the engine good then give it full throttle. If the rpms are too high or too low reset the blade angle and try it again.

beeryboats
08-22-2017, 04:51 PM
It's trial and error. Darrel should be able to give you a setting that will be very close for your engine and gear box ratio. You set the prop up, warm up the engine good then give it full throttle. If the rpms are too high or too low reset the blade angle and try it again.

I emailed the photos to Darrel today. He came back right away. What I thought was a "faceplate" was a steel reinforcement that goes in front of the rear blade support plate. That took up the gap in the spacers. And for safety, the washers and lock nuts are used on the mount bolts as you thread the mount bolts through the flange. They just barely clear the gearbox, but it does work.

After setting the blades at 11 degrees and torquing all 18 bolts, I'm kicking myself for not asking Darrel for a blade angle. That is a bit of a pain. I never thought I would have to loosen the mount bolts to adjust the blades.
Jay

Rodney
08-24-2017, 11:02 AM
Don't expect to get your blade pitch right the first time. Pitch depends a lot on how you like to fly. Want to play STOL or cruise or something in between??

Warpdrive props are very easy to set. I did mine about three or four times before I got it "just right." Mine is a 912 ULS, but I 'm sure there must be recommended rpms for the 582. I kept easing mine back a 1/2 degree at a time until I was happy with the climb and cruise. So nice to have a prop that we can setup ourselves.

Regards
Rodney

beeryboats
08-24-2017, 04:39 PM
Don't expect to get your blade pitch right the first time. Pitch depends a lot on how you like to fly. Want to play STOL or cruise or something in between??

Warpdrive props are very easy to set. I did mine about three or four times before I got it "just right." Mine is a 912 ULS, but I 'm sure there must be recommended rpms for the 582. I kept easing mine back a 1/2 degree at a time until I was happy with the climb and cruise. So nice to have a prop that we can setup ourselves.

Regards
Rodney

Down to the 1/2 degree? I was lucky to keep the bubble between the lines just set at a whole degree number. It was so hard to twist the blade without it jumping clear out of sight. If I had one of those big blade wrenches they use to twist aluminum props I could be more exact, but just twisting with my hands is tough.

t j
08-24-2017, 05:12 PM
I made a big blade wrench out of plywood about 3 or four inches wide by 3 feet long.. Cut out a profile of the blade on one end.

SkySteve
08-24-2017, 09:23 PM
As you are twisting the blades, make sure you are also pulling OUT on each one so the bottom of each blade is up tight against the stops. Once I ended up with a short blade, then realized one was not pulled out all the way.

Rodney
08-25-2017, 01:51 PM
Berryboats. Send me a text with your name to 580-513-8153. I'll call you back. Be glad to discuss a method I learned from some other guys for setting each blade very accurately.

If your prop is too hard to move, are your bolts backed off enough???

Regards
Rodney

SkySteve
08-25-2017, 05:25 PM
Rodney,
Others of us want to know your method also. Come on, let us all in on the method you use.

avidflyer
08-25-2017, 07:13 PM
Not the one you are asking, but I've made a tool that clamps on the blade, and it has a laser attached to it. The laser will project a light across the hangar however far away the wall is. Mark that spot, and if the laser hits in the exact same spot on the second blade, you are as close as you can get. JImChuk

beeryboats
08-26-2017, 01:05 PM
Not the one you are asking, but I've made a tool that clamps on the blade, and it has a laser attached to it. The laser will project a light across the hangar however far away the wall is. Mark that spot, and if the laser hits in the exact same spot on the second blade, you are as close as you can get. JImChuk

I saw that post in my search on this subject. Very good idea if the laser is bright enough.

beeryboats
08-26-2017, 01:08 PM
Berryboats. Send me a text with your name to 580-513-8153. I'll call you back. Be glad to discuss a method I learned from some other guys for setting each blade very accurately.

If your prop is too hard to move, are your bolts backed off enough???

Regards
Rodney

Thanks for the offer. Next time I go out there I'll text you. Maybe tomorrow. And I had all the bolts and nuts just started, not even finger tight, and there is enough friction to make the blade jump.
Jay

t j
08-26-2017, 01:31 PM
Poor man's blade adjusting tool.

SkySteve
08-26-2017, 02:52 PM
Great idea there, TJ. I LIKE it! Now, where did I put that scrap waferboard....?

jiott
08-26-2017, 06:30 PM
I also have the problem of the blade jumping when I try to turn it just a mite. The first blade is ok with all the bolts backed off, but when I tighten the bolts on that first blade just enough to hold it from moving, it adds enough friction to the other blades that they jump when moved. Maybe I'll try that "tool".

rv9ralph
08-26-2017, 08:38 PM
I didn't get quite as fancy when I needed a blade wrench to adjust my prop. I took 2 1x2s approximately 18" long and screwed them together loosely at one end, slipped them over the blade and held the open together to move the blade. Worked great and only took a few minutes to put together.

Ralph

Rodney
08-27-2017, 04:53 AM
Here is how I measure my prop angles. I'm sure it's very close to what Avidflyer is doing too.

First, went to Amazon and bought a 12" Bosch level that also projects a laser dot. While I do the procedure in the hanger, the dot is bright enough to do on the ramp.

Since I have a Warpdrive prop, I take all my measurements at the tip of the prop.

First I level the prop using the bubble level in the Bosch. Then I take a measurement (distance) from the tip of the prop to the ground. I drop a plumb bob from the tip of the prop to the ground and using a black magic marker, make a dot on the ground.

Then I clamp the Bosch level to the tip of the prop. It projects the dot on to the hanger floor. I mark that dot on the floor with the magic marker.

I measure from the plumb bob dot to the laser dot and I have two sides of a right triangle. Using a little trig you solve for the included angle, and you have your prop pitch.

Then I pull the next prop into position, and instead of using a level, I all ready know how high the tip of the prop should be from the floor, and I use that measurement. Clamp the laser level to the tip of the second prop and see where the laser dot is on the floor.

It's not hard to adjust the second and third props to exactly hit the mark on the floor.

If I want to adjust the prop 1/2 a degree, say from 12 to 11.5, I calculate how far the leg of the triangle should be from the plumb bob dot, and measure along the floor to make a new dot. Then adjust each prop to hit that dot.

Sorry for the long explanation of the procedure, but am trying to be specific enough to give a complete procedure.

Hope that is useful to someone.

Regards
Rodney

Rodney
08-27-2017, 05:59 AM
I got to thinking about a couple of things after I posted my procedure.

Two things: 1. If you have a taildragger, your going to need to level the airplane, and also be able to bring it back to the same attitude again if you want to re-adjust the prop. Maybe measure how high the tailwheel is off of the concrete when it's level?? What ever method, just so you can repeat it.

2. I thought it would be good to give an example from my airplane. You DON'T need to know trig to do this procedure.

My prop is 52 inches above the concrete when level. I drop a plumb bob to the floor and mark that location.

So now I need to measure along the floor to set a point for the lazer dot to get my proper prop pitch.

12.5 degrees = 11.5 inches

12 degrees = 11 inches

11.5 degrees = 10.6 inches

11 degrees = 10.1 inches

10.5 degrees = 9.6 inches.

For all practical purposes, 1/2" along the floor = 1/2" of a degree of prop pitch.

So even for trial and error - start with your original prop setting, and get your measurements - both prop height and distance between dots on the floor. Go fly the airplane. Want a little more climb then bring it back to the hanger - level the airplane - set the prop height at the tip - drop the plumb bob and then measure a line along the floor and put your dot say 1/2 - 5/8 of an inch shorter than the original measurement.
Set the other two blades ( or blade ) and go fly again.

You don't really have to know that your prop is 11.489 degrees :D

Set it where it flies best for you and enjoy. Also, suggest you document where you started and where you ended up. Then three months later, if you want to make a slight adjustment, you have some records to go back too. Plus I forget everything that is now two hours old -or older. :confused:

Rodney

jiott
08-27-2017, 08:40 PM
Rodney, I like your very clear explanation of a good method.