Rib Lacing with Oratex

[JMH]

Hello. This is my first post, but I've been taking advantage of all the great information on this forum for a while now. I'm covering my SS with Oratex. For those who have done the same, what did you use for rib lacing? Oratex says we shouldn't use waxed cord, but I'm having trouble locating un-waxed cord. Did you purchase from them, or use a waxed cord?
Thanks
John

[efwd]

Purchased from them.
If I were to do it again I would make a serious attempt to find the flat, unwaxed version of the lacing. Check to see if Poly Fiber has that. The round lace causes additional effort when placing tapes on. It likes to have air trapped. I have been building up the glue over my laces to make it a bit better. It seems Im not trapping air but it would definetly be easier if they were flat. They say you can strip the wax from the lace, but again thats more work.

[efwd]

You can see how prominent the round lacing is. IMHO they would look better if flat. I just finished placing all my rib tapes today. I am very glad to be finished. Tomorrow its the false rib tapes. Thought I would be done with it today but Im tired of it already.
Eddie

[Cherrybark]

Welcome to the forums John.

That's a great picture Eddie. Looks like you are paying a lot of attention to detail when ironing

[bumsteer]

Has anyone found a source of unwaxed flat cord? All I have found, including Poly_Fiber are waxed. Poly_Fiber is injected so I don't know if that would make a difference.

Rick

[efwd]

I have looked since I posted that and I have not been able to locate any.

[Cherrybark]

I made a pretty determined search as well with no luck.

I have a waxed, flat cord that is used for whipping rope work - knots, spices, ends, etc. The cord is flat because individual strands are not twisted together and the wax is required to hold the united strings to make a cord. I've never see flat lacing cord but assume it is made the same way. Remove the wax and you quickly have a mess on your hands. Much like unwaxed dental floss.

[jiott]

I'm curious what the problem is with wax and Oratex? Is it so bad that every bit of wax must be removed? If a small residue is acceptable, then I would just cut lengths of the standard waxed flat lacing cord and soak it overnight in something that easily dissolves wax like white gasoline and then use it.

[JMH]

I reached out to Wick's and ACS. Both have said they don't have any unwaxed lacing cord. I was able to remove the wax from the cord that came with my kit. But as Cherrybark stated it's difficult to use. I couldn't get my knots tight enough to suit me. The wax really helps the cord "grip" to itself when you pull it tight. I'm using the flat waxed cord, but wiping the residue off the fabric and cord after lacing with grease and wax remover I had on hand. I suppose the reason Oratex doesn't like the wax, is the wax residue left behind inhibits adhesion of the glue.

John

[bumsteer]

Sounds like John may have the solution. Use the waxed flat cord and then remove the wax from the visible stitches. I, too, would have to assume the Oratex glue doesn't like wax and could affect the adhesion of the finish tape at the stitch.

Rick

[efwd]

The reason stated by Lars at better aircraft fabric in Alaska (US destributer) is that not only does it affect adhesion but it melts out with the required heat application. It leaves a stain around every lace as if you have dropped a drop of oil around each edge of your tapes.

[Cherrybark]

Along with the official application instructions, Lars will send his own "How To Apply Manual" for Oratex. This is Lars telling you how to cover with Oratex in a very straightforward manner. He doesn't hesitate to describe pitfalls and failures of using wrong techniques. Sometime Lars' German sneaks through the idioms and phrases and makes it an interesting, personable read. If you are seriously considering Oratex or have started a project, don't hesitate to give Lars a call. He is full of information and very helpful.

Here is the discussion of waxed lacing tape from his document:


When using any Oratex tapes it has to be certain that no surface contamination exists on the Oratex surface. All traces of grease, oil, wax, silicone, and rub-off Teflon that might have been accidentally applied while handling and working the Oratex must be removed. A very common source of contamination is the waxed rib-stitching thread; its heavy wax coating rubs off onto the Oratex and prevents the tapes from sticking. Once the glue on the underside of the tapes has become contaminated, it’s pretty much "Game Over" for that tape or the section of tape that has been contaminated. Sadly it indeed looks like the USA-wax-free rib-stitching thread has gone extinct! We have not yet been able to identify a guaranteed good replacement. My own Do27 project airplane uses safety wire for rib-stitching but that is not a good option in general. My advice would be to remove the wax from the thread before taking it to the airplane. So Yes; de-wax the cord before using it, e.g., take a cloth saturated with Methanol and pull the cord through the cloth with pressure on the cord (if you insist on Not buying ours!). We Are producing a new non-waxy thread in Germany (Part Number 08140 "Rib Stitching Thread", 166meters or 544feet, 0.9mm thick, $29.95) and it will not cause the problems the usual USA-sourced waxy thread produces ... Some previous customers used waxed thread despite my warnings and when the Tapes are ironed on the wax melts and spreads under the tapes like crazy. Then the tapes will not stick in that area and that is for sure not the fault of the tapes... DO NOT USE WAXED RIB STITCH THREAD !!!....Someone asked: "Is there any reason I can not use fishing line. The newer lines are wax free and extremely strong for there size. What do you think?" - I would not use the fishing line as it's smooth and cannot be soaked with our glue. why do you not just use our non-waxy tread that we offer? The fishing line is so smooth and the glue cannot penetrate it, I would absolutely Not use it. See the wax on the old style kinda held the knots together and all, together with all the glue and paint. Now ours will soak full of glue, the fishing line will not.

If there were a flat, non-waxed cord I would probably use it. But I don't want to spend the time removing wax from strands before lacing. And I certainly don't want to have problems with finishing tape adhesion. So I'll use the round Oratex non-waxed cord.

[jrevens]

I used waxed, flat lacing cord on my wings. I pulled each piece of cord, pinched between a clean rag initially. After lacing I cleaned each exposed section with a quick wipe of enamel reducer, after carefully removing any little wax particles on the surface that were scraped off during the lacing process. I can detect no areas of discoloration or lack of adhesion. We'll see how it holds up after being flown for awhile. I'm not worried about it.

[efwd]

OMG! That looks so nice. Wish I had done that.
Lars really had me scared to do it.

[jrevens]

OMG! That looks so nice. Wish I had done that.
Lars really had me scared to do it.

Thanks Eddie. Yours looks very good in the pictures too. When I did mine there really wasn't much info warning about the use of waxed cord that I saw. Common sense told me to keep wax off of glued surfaces. The installation instructions were morphing and becoming more detailed as time went on. That's how I remember it anyway. I didn't get any lacing cord in my kit from Kitfox. I ended up ordering a spool from Kitfox when I was at that stage.

[Cherrybark]

That does look very nice, particularly done in white. I almost wish you hadn't posted that picture. I have both the flat waxed cord from the kit and unwaxed from Oratex on hand. Now I will be changing my mind back and forth while putting the fabric on the first wing and nearing the lacing stage.

John, are your doillies done with the fabric or with tape?

[foxbait]

I used the waxed cord supplied with kit as well, wiped corded areas with denatured alcohol prior to attaching finishing strip. Happy with result.

[colospace]

I was in the same situation as John with regard to lack of instruction. I had already started lacing with the flat waxed cord with I learned there could be an issue with the Oratex adhesive. I began pulling the cord thru a clean dry cloth, picked off any wax goobers that developed on the outside of the fabric (no worries about those on inside), and cleaned the completed exposed laces with IPA on a rag. I also made sure to iron around the edge of the laces first before putting any heat on top of the lace in case any remaining wax might want to melt out.

[jrevens]

?...

John, are your doillies done with the fabric or with tape?

I made most of the bigger ones from fabric and smaller ones from tape when I could.

[efwd]

John, how bout telling us how you have such nice contact around the lift strut brackets. I have been contemplating putting a bead of the adhesive around it and allowing paint to cover the glue when masking off the mount for paint? yours look very nice.

[mr bill]

I noticed that too. Now I have more work to do.

[jrevens]

John, how bout telling us how you have such nice contact around the lift strut brackets. I have been contemplating putting a bead of the adhesive around it and allowing paint to cover the glue when masking off the mount for paint? yours look very nice.


Thanks again, Eddie. Rather than "floating" under the fabric, I attached the aluminum backing plates to the strut fittings with Hysol and some Super Fil, covered, then touched it up with paint and a small brush.

[efwd]

Awe man, too late.

[Av8r3400]

Yeah. Definitely our next gold Lindy...

[jrevens]

I used the waxed cord supplied with kit as well, wiped corded areas with denatured alcohol prior to attaching finishing strip. Happy with result.

Your work looks really clean and nice, Mike! I wasn't aware of others doing Oratex on this list when I started, and now it seems like there are quite a few doing really good work with this different, and sometimes a bit difficult, system. There's a learning curve, and it seems like we're all sort of "pioneers" in a way. I feel fortunate to have my friend Gary ("colospace") here in the Denver area also using Oratex, and doing a beautiful job with it. I like the way you did the relief for the strut attach fitting.

[foxbait]

Thanks John, I started the covering process after you and Gary and followed your posts with great interest, really appreciated your pictures and workmanship. I decided I would cut my own tapes, not sure it was the right decision. Cutting the tapes was not bad but spent a significant amount of time masking so no glue was visible.
I did break down and purchase a roll of tape for the curved areas on the tail feathers and vertical stab(couldn't get the heavier 6000 tapes I cut to wrap nicely around the curves). Have enjoyed the process and the result, like you say, there's a learning curve.

[jrevens]

Yeah. Definitely our next gold Lindy...

Aw shucks, Larry... your check is in the mail. ;) Your comments have been so kind and embarrassingly humbling for me - I wish I could have been at your gathering at OSH so I could've eaten some of your food to pay you back! :p

In all seriousness, as I've said before, my fox is NOT an Oshkosh award-winning project. I can't live up to that. I am happy with most of the workmanship & I try to sometimes come up with unique details, but next to your beautiful airplane, or the factory's builds, or Steve's new 7, or a whole bunch of others that I've seen on this forum, it's a real "plain Jane". But thank you, again.

[Av8r3400]

One day, John, you can look at the Mangy close. She's nice, but she's a bush flyer, not a beauty queen. She's complete with scratches, dents and oil drips. :cool:


(And probably the worst set of seat covers ever installed in a 'Fox)

[efwd]

LOL. Larry, I thought the seats were how you came to the name. :p
nothing else could have justified it.

[Redbear]

What did you use for rib reinforcing tape.?

[jrevens]

I used standard reinforcing tape, available from Kitfox, etc. If I remember correctly, it was 1/2" wide and I used two strips, side by side, per cap strip.

[Redbear]

The tape I have is a hering bone cotton tape. I am not sure what is supplied in the Kitfox kit. Some tapes can be polyester. If you can elaborate on the material that would be great.

[jrevens]

It is polyester with adhesive on one side.

[Cherrybark]

Used the same tape as John - from the kit. Worked nicely.

[Redbear]

Used the same tape as John - from the kit. Worked nicely.
Thanks guys