Question Phase one limitations

[Harleyboykf]

I received this response from a broker about a kitfox 3 that I am considering purchasing and was wondering what exactly it means and how long will it take to go through this process and at what cost. (( Out of annual and needs the new phase one limitations flown off )(Since the logs were lost there is no record of the original phase one flight
test being done. Therefore the new operation limitations will have a new
test area to complete the phase one testing and how many hours required to do so. ))

[TahoeTim]

You have to fly off 40 hours of testing before taking a passenger. You make a log book entry at the conclusion of the 40 hours. You can find the exact lingo for the entry on the web:

I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation . The flight test was completed under the following conditions: maximum operating weight XXX, maximum demonstrated airspeed XXX, and minimum demonstrated stall speed: XXX.
Aircraft in phase II operation . Signed_______

Due to my unique location, I was able to get my test area extended from 50 miles to 100 miles so I could test at sea level. It was fun to strap in bags of dog food to simulate a passenger and baggage to test at rated weight. (A Zenith 601, not a kitfox).

I am more curious about how the FAA will rule regarding the build. Will they allow you to be listed as the builder and as a result, do the annuals and repairs yourself?

[Harleyboykf]

Thank you Tim for the info. This is just the beginning. I haven't even gotten my student pilot cert.yet. Ready to take the written (Gleim Home/online study material completed). I'm wanting to get my own lsa so I can save on costs in the long run + Tok Alaska doesn't have an light sport to train in. I have to check , I think there is a lsa cfi.

[N981MS]

Phase I is a test of the airplane. Likely 40 hours for that airplane. Sounds like it was probably done but if no records the FAA may consider it never happened despite how obvious from the condition of the airplane.

In a typical phase I it is NOT a time for flight instruction. It sounds like that may be what you are after. Also, historically, phase I was required crew only. Meaning just the pilot. Newer regulation allow a passenger who meets certain very stringent requirements.

Given the newer regs and since this may not be a typical phase I it may be that you can get some instruction during that time although it is not the intent of phase I to get primary flight instruction.

If you want insurance you should check that as well. Many do not allow student pilots in any experimental much less a student during phase I.

[efwd]

Funny, I met a guy a few months back that is doing all that Maxwell describes. I can't understand an instructor who would blatantly violate these rules. Initial flight was conducted by the instructor then from that point on the owner has received private pilot instruction and he is flying solo inside the phase one hours. I don't believe he is even wringing out the aircraft and or compiling data. I consider myself a student of others follies. .

[Harleyboykf]

Thanks Maxwell, very informative. I hate to pass up the opportunity here with the airplane but was thinking that from a legal standpoint that I wouldn't be able to fly it until I received my sport pilot cert. and then I could fly off the Phase one.

[N981MS]

Here is the FAA AC on taking a second pilot. Qualification matrix is on page 12. Honestly, I have not read this whole thing. I guess I would if I had an imminent need.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-116.pdf

[Dave S]

Hey Pete,

There is a right way of doing this stuff even if it is not typical; and, we have one list member who did it successfully. Might want to take a look at his history on this list.

See Kitfox of the Month on this list for January 2016. Patrick H built his Kitfox not having a Pilot's certificate. The Key is having a good relationship with a qualified person, I believe a commercial rated instructor pilot in this case who would do the aircraft testing on his behalf. There is no law that prohibits a person other than the builder from being a test pilot - other than having the correct airman's certificate.

So Patrick built it, another qualified person tested it - then Patric took instruction from that person once the testing was complete and earned his Pilot's certificate in his own Kitfox. While charging for the aircraft for instruction in an experimental aircraft is prohibited; taking instruction in an experimental aircraft which has been tested is entirely OK.

With regard to goosing the regulations to try to work around other challenges I like to quote Admiral Hyman Rickover of the US Navy....."If you are going to sin, make sure you sin against God and not the bureaucracy. That way you have some hope of being forgiven."

Check out Patrick's contributions to this list - there are many ways of getting to where we want to be....."git 'er done!":):):):):):)

[efwd]

I wonder how many flight instructors would be up for flying off somebodies phase one for free? That would be great if they were willing to do that for the fun it would entail. Of course if it were me I would prefer to be the instructor for you in your plane in return, for a flight instructor fee of course. I would consider that a win win myself. Forty or so hours at no cost in a Kitfox. That sounds fun as hell.
Eddie

[N981MS]

Absolutely legal to get private pilot instruction in an experimental after phase I.

I am not certain, but don't think so during phase I. Certainly I would consider it unwise.

The bugaboo can be insurance. It can be had but can be a bit tough to find for a student in an experimental.

Unlike a car, insurance is not required to be legal. It may be required by your bank. You probably want it to cover your assets.

[Harleyboykf]

Dave... I'm definitely not trying to skirt around anything. Honesty and integrity are admirable traits all should posses . I wasn't sure about what phase 1 was all about . The plane I'm looking to purchase is on B.S. and I was just looking for the cheapest most effective , efficient way to get my license, buy a plane, and to be able to do my annuals and not have it cost me an arm and a leg and 2 years of this that and the other thing. I live off grid , have no phone only internet, and don't live anywhere close to a cfi (Fairbanks Alaska may be the closest). Thanks again to everybody for the info you've provided. It's steering my in the right direction . I think.

[avidflyer]

How many hours are supposed to be on the aircraft now? If it was me, I would call the FAA FISDO in your area and ask them what they think. After all, their answers are what really matters. Don't be afraid to talk to the FAA. I have found that they are decent people that want to help if they can. I'm sure there are some jerks who want to throw their weight around, but I haven't ran into any like that. Just be straight forward with them (no BS) and they will help you if they can. I once bought an Avid with only 25 hrs flown off on it. Because I was moving it from that area to mine, I had to get a new location from the FAA to fly off the remaining hours of phase 1 flight test time. The FAA was very helpful with this and it wasn't a problem. JImChuk

[Dave S]

Gota agree with Jim here - the FAA may very well be your best friend on this anticipated purchase.:)

When an experimental aircraft receives its AW certificate, the facts of the AW inspection and the original limitations for the aircraft are permanently filed by the FAA as well as the identity of the original builder and history of ownership - I believe these will be in Oklahoma City unless this has changed - in any case, your local FAA District offices can facilitate procurement of this information. As Jim says - these guys really are here to help and my experience with the FAA is like Jim's.:)

It may or may not be a red flag when logs get lost - they can get lost in one of two general ways: 1) :confused:Accidentally (the dog ate it, misplaced in an estate); or, 2) :eek:Intentionally (to get rid of the aircraft's history). Having said that - lack of aircraft logs can be a benign situation where you may be able to piece together enough info from the FAA, contacts with previous owner/builder, etc.

[N981MS]

I hope I have not come across as negative and I did not mean to imply your were trying to skirt the rules. It sounds like you are just trying to learn here.

Just so you are aware before you take the plunge, you mention doing your own annuals. You are allowed to do any work you want on an experimental aircraft. You may only perform the yearly condition inspection if you hold the repairman's certificate for that specific N number airplane. You can get the repairman's certificate if you built it. If not, you may be able to find a friendly A&P to sign off on an annual that you performed and save some cash that way.

I also agree that the FAA may be your friend here.

Good luck with it.

[Harleyboykf]

I thought the same thing. Emailed my local FSDO in Fairbanks about 3 weeks ago about a taylorcraft I was wanting to purchase, gave the guy the N# and asked him 3 or 4 questions and haven't heard a peep from him. That's probably one reason I'm on here. Extremely frustrating at times up here with communications sometimes. Btw , the man's name was Clark Miller I contacted with the faa who hasn't responded back to me and that was on March 3rd.... maybe he's on vacation.

[avidflyer]

I would think a phone call to the FSDO would be better than an email. JImChuk

[N981MS]

I agree with the call vs email. Different FSDO here but I called when we removed slats and changed to ground adjustable prop on Zenith 750. I had to leave a message but later that day a guy returned my call. I had a plan: 5 hours back into phase I to test flight characteristics at cg limits. FAA said sounded good to him took down my tail number and away we went.