Video - Full flight with audio

[trentp]

I had a couple comments/requests that I make a longer video that had a full flight with audio. I did edit this a bit to get rid of some of the more boring stuff (pre flight, most of the taxiing, run up, and the straight and level cruising to the landing spots). This is more of a vlog style video than what I have done before, which I am not sure how I feel about. (I hate hearing myself talk so that probably why, and I say some silly stuff when I am thinking out loud while trying to fly)

Anyway, hope you guys enjoy it! (fair warning, it is longer than the other videos I have done)

https://youtu.be/5hPYtQLI6K8

Trent

[DesertFox4]

Thanks Trent. Fun riding along with you and seeing your Kitfox playgrounds.

[Ramos]

I enjoyed the ride AND the commentary. :)

[efwd]

Very Fun! Thanks for doing that.
Eddie

[jmodguy]

Very good! Enjoyed the vid. :)

[TJay]

That was fun, Thanks

[Av8r3400]

Great video Trent. Thumb's up!

What software and computer are you using to edit? Assume Go-Pro cameras?

[Av8r_Sed]

Thanks Trent. You make a good Kitfox statesman for the YouTube crowd.

[GMKman]

Great video, how do you like those VGs? Big difference in handling and stall speed?

[av8rps]

Very nice video Trent. I just love your Freedom Fox. It is one kick ass airplane. You really have done a great job modifying it to match your flying style. And your videos do a lot to show just how capable, and how much fun these planes are. So thanks for taking the time to do that for all of us. I look forward to seeing more, and will share them with people that are curious why I like a Kitfox so much.

Paul

[trentp]

Thanks guys! Glad you guys liked it, I will try to keep doing videos like this as well as my regular edits with only music and not me talking the whole time.


Great video, how do you like those VGs? Big difference in handling and stall speed?

I never flew the wing without them. The previous owner said they really didn't do anything to the stall speed, maybe a little more stable on approach but he said the difference wasn't really discernable. I wish they were taped on instead of glued, I would really like to move them forward and see how they do, the placement of them now seems too far back to even have any effect at a stall AOA.

[jiott]

I personally prefer the audio without music on all short or long videos. Most of us have never been to the places people show on their videos, so descriptions, locations, explanations do a lot to make it more interesting. Plus the fact that it is nearly impossible to choose music that a majority of the audience likes.

[Dusty]

I really enjoy your video's,to me your choice of music compliments your artwork however your latest with audio is also a winner
Keep em coming thanks:cool:
Did you do the kitfox sti video ?

[David47]

Thanks Trent. Keep them coming.

[GMKman]

Thanks guys! Glad you guys liked it, I will try to keep doing videos like this as well as my regular edits with only music and not me talking the whole time.



I never flew the wing without them. The previous owner said they really didn't do anything to the stall speed, maybe a little more stable on approach but he said the difference wasn't really discernable. I wish they were taped on instead of glued, I would really like to move them forward and see how they do, the placement of them now seems too far back to even have any effect at a stall AOA.

I agree, I recently purchased some VGs and installed them approx. 4 1/4" back from leading edge per manufacturer's recommendations and didn't notice much improvement either except for the ones installed on the elevator (helped in flare). I'm glad I only used double sided sticky tape so I could easily take them back off. The improvements weren't noticeable enough for me but after seeing your videos, it's clear you have a lot more feel for your plane than I do. Nice touch..
I did "glue" the VGs on the elevator however..
Thanks for the response.
Brad..

[trentp]

I agree, I recently purchased some VGs and installed them approx. 4 1/4" back from leading edge per manufacturer's recommendations and didn't notice much improvement either except for the ones installed on the elevator (helped in flare). I'm glad I only used double sided sticky tape so I could easily take them back off. The improvements weren't noticeable enough for me but after seeing your videos, it's clear you have a lot more feel for your plane than I do. Nice touch..
I did "glue" the VGs on the elevator however..
Thanks for the response.
Brad..

Brad, sounds like you have about the same results with VGs.

If you only have them taped on then you should try taking them off and moving them as close to the leading edge of the wing as you can stick them and see how they do. I would be really interested to hear if that helps, I did read somewhere that someone placed the VGs further forward on a kitfox wing but I cant seem to remember where I saw it. Everyone I fly with in supercubs always have theirs as far forward as possible to get the biggest improvements, so I would love to test that on the kitfox wing. I can definitely tell just looking at the placement of mine that they are far enough back that they wouldnt be effective at a full stall AOA.

Trent

[av8rps]

More to satisfy my own curiousity than anything, I've been investigating VG installation results of many Kitfoxes, Avid Flyers, and Highlanders for over a decade. And generally I've discovered that VG's work really well on the Highlander, but not on the Kitfoxes or Avids. The odd thing about that is that the top of the wing on all those aircraft is pretty much identical, so it really doesn't make sense.

But it does when you stop to realize that the Highlander has standard flaps and ailerons on the trailing edge of the wing, verses flaperons that are used on the Fox and Avid. So, when the wing begins to stall on the Highlander, the flaps and ailerons stall also, causing not only lift loss on the wing, but also lack of controllability issues. Installing VG's helps to keep airflow straighter longer over the top of the wing (and the flaps and ailerons) in high angle of attack scenarios. So the VG's on the Highlander do exactly what they are supposed to, reducing the stall speed and improving controllability up to the stall. (Gee, just like they do on most other airplanes they are used on :rolleyes:)

So, then why doesn't the Kitfox or Avid react the same way as VG's do on the Highlander?

If you think about it, it's really pretty obvious. No other airplanes have the flaps and ailerons hanging below the wing. So the entire wing will lift uninterrupted all the way up to the ultimate angle of attack before it stalls. Having no airflow disturbances caused by the movements of the flaps and ailerons attached to the trailing edge of the wing helps to keep the wing flying longer. And there is also full controllability of the ailerons, as even though the wing is stalled, the ailerons aren't. Hanging below the wing trailing edge in their own clean air (the air is actually faster on the bottom of the wing during high wing angles) the ailerons even beyond the wing stall remain effective.

Case in point, my old Avid Flyer could fly at a real 22 mph. And even though the wing was stalling and the buffetting associated with the wing stall was pretty intense, you could do figure 8's to your hearts content without concerns of losing control and spinning. The flaperons were not stalled even though the wing was, so even at 20 mph you had a lot of controllability.

The German Stuka Divebomber used flaperons below the trailing edge for much the same reason. The Stuka could enter a high speed accelerated stall while recovering from an extremely high speed dive, and the way they avoided a violent snap roll in the pull up was to use flaperons below the trailing edge. The flaperons under the wing didn't stall even though the wing was, and therefore they could maintain control until the wing started flying again

I know that is a long winded explanation, but I hope it helps everyone here to better understand why VG's are unlikely to improve a Kitfox. I know some will claim VG's will work on a Kitfox, but as far as I'm concerned, my old Avid Flyer proved to me a long time ago tbat it would be pretty hard to improve on the design. Flaperons get bashed a lot by those that don't understand them. But they really are a performance and controllability advantage.

[efwd]

Well, I enjoyed the read. Thanks for the time you spent writing it.

[rv9ralph]

Here's and idea to get a visual of exactly how the VGs are affecting the airflow. With the availability of camera mounting to capture everything... tuft (short pieces of yarn taped to the wing in a regular pattern) the wing and video it for study. It will show how and where the airflow separates from the wing. With this information, you can try several location of the VGs to determine if they really are making a difference. Oh, for a base study, examine the tufts without any VGs for comparison purposes.

There was a time when tufts were used to optimize airflow over a airframe.

Ralph

[trentp]

Av8rps, that makes total sense to me! It sounds like it really depends on what wing it's on as well because I have heard the VGs actually made a pretty big difference on the STi wing, which still utilizes flaperons. I plan on flying the STi wing without VGs before installing them so I can test it on that wing. I'll report back with my results.

[av8rps]

I'm glad that all of my late night mind wanderings made sense to someone :o

An accurate tuff test would be the best way to know if there just might be a way to get VG's to work on our Kitfox wing. Maybe we just haven't found the exact right location? But again, I've seen a lot of locations tried over the years to poor results on Kitfoxes, so I'm still skeptical (plus I hate cleaning around VG's, so that somewhat deters me from installing any).

It is really interesting to hear that VG's work well on the STI Kitfox wing. But I have to admit that I know very little about what the difference is between that wing and a regular Kitfox wing. Maybe Kitfox aircraft could share where they located them on the STI wing and someone here could then try the same location on a regular Kitfox?

Trent, it sounds like you're going to try a set of STI wings on your plane, is that correct?





Av8rps, that makes total sense to me! It sounds like it really depends on what wing it's on as well because I have heard the VGs actually made a pretty big difference on the STi wing, which still utilizes flaperons. I plan on flying the STi wing without VGs before installing them so I can test it on that wing. I'll report back with my results.

[av8rps]

Geez, I just remembered that someone had done tuft testing videos on youtube, and its already been covered here;

http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=870

[trentp]

Yeah, I have not heard of anyone having much luck with the standard kitfox wing and VGs. The only one that seemed to claim an improvement was this testimonial on StolSpeed's site: http://stolspeed.com/kitfox (note the forward placement, mine are currently set in the location of the further back group of VGs in the photo in the testimonial, which leads me to think a further forward placement would be benficial)

And yes, I will be going with the STi wings on my plane! :D

Trent


I'm glad that all of my late night mind wanderings made sense to someone :o

An accurate tuff test would be the best way to know if there just might be a way to get VG's to work on our Kitfox wing. Maybe we just haven't found the exact right location? But again, I've seen a lot of locations tried over the years to poor results on Kitfoxes, so I'm still skeptical (plus I hate cleaning around VG's, so that somewhat deters me from installing any).

It is really interesting to hear that VG's work well on the STI Kitfox wing. But I have to admit that I know very little about what the difference is between that wing and a regular Kitfox wing. Maybe Kitfox aircraft could share where they located them on the STI wing and someone here could then try the same location on a regular Kitfox?

Trent, it sounds like you're going to try a set of STI wings on your plane, is that correct?

[av8rps]

Pretty cool that you will be going to the new STI wing. You are a guy that I'm sure will maximize its capabilities, so it will be very interesting to hear your results with the new wing verses the old.

After I re-watched the YouTube Kitfox tuft testing video I was somewhat rethinking my thoughts about VG's effectiveness, as it was pretty convincing. Could it be so simple that we just need to move them further forward? I guess we will never know until someone tries it.

[trentp]

Thanks, I plan on giving a thorough pirep after getting comfortable in the STi.

Yeah, I really wish my VGs were removable so I could try moving them forward, when I look at the placement of where mine are in relation to stall AOA they definitely appear to be far enough back to be buried by the boundary layer at the start of the separation and therefore no longer effective during a stall.

Maybe someone else on here has VGs that are two sided taped on that they could move forward on their wing and try?

Trent


Pretty cool that you will be going to the new STI wing. You are a guy that I'm sure will maximize its capabilities, so it will be very interesting to hear your results with the new wing verses the old.

After I re-watched the YouTube Kitfox tuft testing video I was somewhat rethinking my thoughts about VG's effectiveness, as it was pretty convincing. Could it be so simple that we just need to move them further forward? I guess we will never know until someone tries it.

[GMKman]

Okay okay! Hint well received. After talking with Jerry at pacific Northwest aero LLC., I've decided to try my vgs at 3" behind leading edge. I'm just waiting for some free time and calm wind to see if there's any good results.

[trentp]

Awesome, please report back with your results!


Okay okay! Hint well received. After talking with Jerry at pacific Northwest aero LLC., I've decided to try my vgs at 3" behind leading edge. I'm just waiting for some free time and calm wind to see if there's any good results.

[PNWJARED]

Trent, Your video's are always a cut above no doubt. Keep up the good work!

[GMKman]

Awesome, please report back with your results!

Okay after doing some very amateur flight testing, moving the vgs forward to 3" from leading edge definitely improved low speed stall speeds and handling characteristics. I have an IO-240 up front i.e. nose heavy so if I add just a little power (1100 rpm vs. 800rpm) I can hold the stick all the way back in my lap till my arms get sore. At idle, it just merely porpoises without wing drop.
The downside is the increased drag. Lost 5mph cruise (ballpark) which also created IMHO my oil temp. To increase to maintain same cruise speeds which in AZ is not a good thing in the summer. So I took them back off and oil temps returned to normally hot. Got to love AZ haha.

[trentp]

Okay after doing some very amateur flight testing, moving the vgs forward to 3" from leading edge definitely improved low speed stall speeds and handling characteristics. I have an IO-240 up front i.e. nose heavy so if I add just a little power (1100 rpm vs. 800rpm) I can hold the stick all the way back in my lap till my arms get sore. At idle, it just merely porpoises without wing drop.
The downside is the increased drag. Lost 5mph cruise (ballpark) which also created IMHO my oil temp. To increase to maintain same cruise speeds which in AZ is not a good thing in the summer. So I took them back off and oil temps returned to normally hot. Got to love AZ haha.

Were you able to note how much it decreased your stall speed? Interesting on cruise speed, I haven't heard of anyone losing that much on the top end with VGs. Bummer about your temps as well, I see why you removed them.

Trent