Kitfox IV – What to do about damaged fabric and aileron?

[OliverR]

Please find attached a few pictures of the damages on a Kitfox, which is up for sale in Florida. I had already told the seller a few weeks ago that I am not interested anymore, because of these damages. I figured that I would rather spend more and buy a nicer plane. Yesterday, I however wondered if I might have been too quick with my decision.

The engine already has over 1200 hours on it, the panel and the interior look a little bit rough and it shows quite a bit of tear and wear all around. Then again, it would be <$20K and looks from a few yards away pretty nice. If I could get the fabric properly repaired, I could start flying it right away and upgrade things as I please over the next few years.

May I ask you to have a look at the attached pictures? I figured that I could put a patch on the worn fabric at the door frame and re-do the long patch on the belly. Any objections?

What however concerns me is the apparently failing glue of the seam on the wing. Is there a way to properly fix it? Do you believe this is an indication that other seams might have also been insufficiently glued?
What about the damage on the flaperon? It doesn’t look like much, but it was certainly exposed to quite a bit force. I am therefore wondering, if the flaperon hinges and the underlying structure might have also been damaged?

[efwd]

You know, if you look at some of the aircraft around here on the forum, if your OK with recovering it, you could have an awesome ride. Just look at Mangy Fox.
There are several others on here also.
IMHO it is the flapperon that I could not live with and thats not a huge project to undertake. The fabric at the door would be easily repaired using Oratex Fabric as a patch.
Eddie

[efwd]

In fact, it would appear that the patch on the belly is likely Oratex. That patch itself looks questionable and its very simple to use with far better finish than what is seen there.

[OliverR]

@ Eddie:

Thank you for your response. Actually, I would not shy away for covering a plane, I just do not want to be under pressure that that I have to do this immediately.

The more I think about it, the more I like the thought of getting an inexpensive plane which is airworthy, but which shows some wear and tear. Over the next winters I could then re-do the interior, the panel, install a Zipper kit, replace the fabric and so on...

What are your thoughts on the peeling edges of the fabric on the wing?

[avidflyer]

Do you know what type of covering process was used? If it was polyfiber, and I had the plane, I would lift the edges of the finishing tape and clean it as good as I could and then reglue it with poly tac. Finish tapes are usually glued down with poly brush, but the tac should work good in this case. I have done that before and it worked fine. With all the colors right there, I would try to avoid pealing the tape off and putting a new one down. The tape isn't structural, all it does is double up the fabric to help whatever is under it to not chafe through the fabric. On the door, I would probably bend up some aluminum covers. Obviously the door rubs there, and the next fabric will get worn away also. Someone else just was posting about the SS covers they got from Kitfox. JImChuk

[Slyfox]

my thought is that wear on the door opening is not from the door, it usually lays flat to the outside. I think this is from somebody brushing against that with his behind on entry. haha

[OliverR]

Do you know what type of covering process was used? If it was polyfiber, and I had the plane, I would lift the edges of the finishing tape and clean it as good as I could and then reglue it with poly tac. [...] I would try to avoid pealing the tape off and putting a new one down. [...]

Sounds good, I don't know what material it is, though.

I just suggested to my wife that we should fly to Florida this weekend and check the plane out. We were planning to spend up to $30K. For the more than $10K we would save by buying this plane, we could re-cover it, do the interior and would then have everything brand new and exactly the way we want it. Let's see what the boss has to say... ;)



[...] I think the guy that is from somebody brushing against that with his behind on entry. haha

I thought so too.... ;)

[jiott]

I think by the time you replace the panel, recover it, replace the interior, and replace the flaperon you will have far more than $10,000 into it. Then you still end up with a 1200 hour engine. A Zipper kit will renew the top end but not the bottom end. If it was me I would keep looking.

[alienwes]

Looks like it would be a good plane for flying in the sticks. Kinda like a truck that already has scratches so you don't mind driving it through mesquite to go hunting. BTW, what would a recovering and basic paint job cost on a plane? Assuming that it includes the labor.

[OliverR]

[...] BTW, what would a recovering and basic paint job cost on a plane? Assuming that it includes the labor.

I don't know about labor, but I understand that fabric, glue, chemicals, paint and whatever else is needed to cover a Kitfox cost between $2k and $3k. Oratex a bit more.

[avidflyer]

I covered and painted a complete Avid except for the tail feathers and 3 different Kitfox wings last year. I kept track of the hours on the wings, but don't have that info with me here. Just guessing though, I would say it would be at least 100 hrs of labor if you are using poly fiber system and have done it before to recover the Kitfox 4. I did some searching, and found a thread I had posted on the "other" Avid/Kitfox site, and there I found that I spent 47 hrs. on installing fabric and finish tapes on 2 Kitfox 4 wings. Based on that, my 100 hr guess is probably way low.....JImChuk

Not sure if the pictures will show up if you're not a member
http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/4327-recovering-another-set-of-wings/

[efwd]

I have just about everything you would need to do a complete recover should you seriously consider that task. It was shipped to me 03/01/2016 with my kit. Not sure how much shelf life would be left on the liquids but I am sure i could let it go for a better deal than purchasing from a distributor if its still viable.
Eddie

[rainbird]

Any plane can be repaired. There are some builders who save the data plate and build a new plane around it. That said, from what I see in the pictures it's doable. When I was building my first plane I started knowing nothing about fabric covering. I started by getting a Poly Fiber manual and reading it very carefully. Then I ordered some materials and. Built some jigs. After a couple try's I felt ready to start on my plane . The manual was very well written and explained the whole process step by step. The only thing I had real trouble with was tying that rib lacing knot. I purchased an early DVD and then that made sense. The point is.. you can make those repairs and do a good job if you are willing to take the time and effort. On the other hand...if you want to fly NOW go buy a plane that is ready to fly.

That belly...I would turn the plane upside down, remove the landing gear, then cut out the belly fabric and put on a new piece.
By the way ...what does IMHO stand for?

[PapuaPilot]

Rainbird IMHO = in my honest opinion

I think I spent at least 100 hours just doing the covering and another 100+ doing the painting. Plan on 200-300 hours and $2500-3000 for fabric and paint using the Polyfiber system.

It looks like the fabric should be changed soon, but you might get a flying season out of it if you do some patches. If it has the Stits Polyfiber system you should be able to put wider tape over the loose wing tape using Polytak glue. The same would be true for the door lip. It doesn't have to be pretty if you are going to recover it next winter. Its not clear how bad the belly repair is, just make sure there are not any loose edges, cuts or holes. If there is any missing paint that has peeled or chipped away where there is exposed fabric than you should really just plan to recover it immediately.

When you recover it plan on finding more things that need to be taken care of. You are bound to find things. It is good to add another 50% to your budget for these unexpected things.

The flaperon needs fixing. Whoever does the next condition inspection could easily determine that it is not in a condition safe for flight because:
1. The patch on the trailing edge has added a significant amount of weight that could possibly lead to flutter.
2. There is loss of structural integrity from the wrinkled skin.
3. You need to look inside for de-bonding, bent spar tube, etc.
It might be possible to replace the damaged section of skin and make an over lapping seam outboard of there using pop rivets. This would be a fairly easy repair. If the entire flaperon skin needs replacing it might be better to just build a new one or look for a used one.

IMHO it could be possible to make this a nice plane for an additional $5000. That doesn't include anything on the engine though.

Since the plane is in Florida you need to make sure there is not any corrosion on the airframe, lift struts, wings spars and attach fittings. This or any engine issues would make it a deal breaker for me.

Do you have anyone to help you look at the plane? It would be good to have a KF owner or A&P look at it with you.

Also, if all of the above stuff makes you nervous just walk away or see if they can drop the price accordingly. There will be other Kitfox planes showing up on the market.

[alienwes]

I can't imagine what 100 hours of shop time would cost! I thought the engine was the most costly part to consider. I have been corrected. Thanks for everyone's time and cost estimates.
Wes

[OliverR]

[...] Not sure if the pictures will show up if you're not a member
http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/4327-recovering-another-set-of-wings/

Wow, looks like you did a great job. :)



I have just about everything you would need to do a complete recover should you seriously consider that task. [...]

Good to know, but I guess I'm not there yet.



[...] ...what does IMHO stand for?

"In My Humble Opinion" http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/IMHO-in-my-humble-opinion



[...] Since the plane is in Florida you need to make sure there is not any corrosion on the airframe, lift struts, wings spars and attach fittings. This or any engine issues would make it a deal breaker for me.

Do you have anyone to help you look at the plane? It would be good to have a KF owner or A&P look at it with you.

Also, if all of the above stuff makes you nervous just walk away or see if they can drop the price accordingly. There will be other Kitfox planes showing up on the market.

No, it doesn't make me nervous, and yes I have somebody to help or to at least give me advise. My wife and I are members of a very active EAA chapter, of which at least one tech counselor has plenty of experience with tube and fabric aircraft. He actually echos the opinion, you guys are expressing: The fabric can be repaired, but that we should prepare ourselves to re-cover it in the not too distant future and that this will most likely also result in a lot of other work. Other members of our chapter also claim to be experienced with tube an fabric.

I have also always been doing most of the maintenance and avionics upgrades on our old weightshift trike, the Cessna 172 we had, our current Mooney and have our mechanic sign off on it. My wife and I are also currently building a RV-10.

I therefore wouldn't consider myself a pro, but I am generally familiar with aircraft system and also have people close by, who I can ask for help. The only area in which I have no experience at all is working with fabric.

Good to know that corrosion is a concern. I wasn't aware of this, as I thought that this would be not much of an issue with Kitfoxes, as they are not that old and since the tubes are made of CrMo.



I can't imagine what 100 hours of shop time would cost! I thought the engine was the most costly part to consider. I have been corrected. Thanks for everyone's time and cost estimates.
Wes

I don't have any experience with Kitfoxes yet, but heard from others, who had vintage aircraft re-covered, that typically fabric and paint makes up for only half the costs. The other half is stuff which needs to be fixed once the old fabric is removed. I understand that the costs to re-cover something like a Piper Cub can easily exceed $30K. Most of it is labor.


My wife generally approves the idea of getting this plane, but she cannot take the next two Fridays off, to fly for a weekend to Florida. It is quite possible that by the time we can go, the plane will already be sold anyway.

Personally, I am still torn between spending $25K to $30K for a nice Kitfox IV, which would however also have +20 year old fabric, paint, most likely a dated panel and an engine with several hundred hours on it.
Or, if we should rather buy something more like a project plane, which we could restore to exactly the condition we want, with big tires, full Lexan doors, a stronger engine and so on.
We might end up at over $30K, but everything would be brand new and we would know the condition of our plane in every detail.

What I really like about the Kitfoxes are the folding wings. While we will get a regular hangar for it, it is still nice to be able to fold the wings, in order to to haul it home and to put it in the heated garage for bigger repairs or modifications.

Tough choice....